The Trinity - monotheistic or tritheistic?

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Christianity has always claimed to be monotheistic, but im struggling to understand how the trinity is a monotheistic concept. If the claim is that ‘God is 3 persons in 1’ then from what i see it is actually a tritheistic concept (the belief that there are three equally powerful gods who form a triad).

I would like an explanation from the christian perspective on the trinity and how it is not ‘tritheistic’.

 

[memnoch_lover]

Trinity is not three gods but one God.

We do not count God in terms of persons that is why although they are three persons they are not three gods…but rather we count God in terms of essense…we say that the three persons have thesame and one essense without distinction therefore they are one God.

Essence

The essence of the three persons is one and thesame without distinction,hence they are one God…For these reason the Son is wholly in the Father, the HolySpirit is wholly in the Father and the Son…That is why they cannot be partners to each other because each is present in each other. what one does is done by all without any help from the other… where one is all is there… when you count one all are counted…You cannot count 1,2,3 Gods because when you count one of them are included, to count further is redundant.

Person

When we speak of person Father ,Son , Holy Spirit…we simply mean that although they are one in essense there is distinction as to person. The distinction is that the Father begets the Son, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.But it is wrong to say that the Father existed first, then the Son second, then HolySpirit third. What is correct is that the Father eternally begets the Son and the HolySpirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son.Eternal means infinity. Therefore the existence of the three person is said to be “simul” meaning “at the same time”

It is wrong to say that the Trinity is 3 in 1 because it does not make sense. what is correct is Trinity is 3 persons but one and the same essense of God

In what way the Father begets or reproduce the Son eternally?
through sex and wife?Wrong!

What is correct is that…There is no way God can think of Himself except that which He really is…Hence God’s thought of Himself is absolutely like Himself. If God exists on its own…then God’s thought of Himself being absolutely like Himself must exist on its own otherwise it is not absolutely like Himself.
THEREFORe there are two existence in one God existing on its own a. God we call Father
b. God’s living thought of Himself we call the Son or Word or the Logos.

So in the Son , the Father sees Himself, Since the beauty and goodness of the Father is reflected by the Son… the Father Loves the Son.

But what is Love? Love according to christian vocabulary is the giving of all good and beauty. hence When the Father Loves the Son, the Father gives what is all good to the Son. Since the Father is all good, what is given by the Father to the Son is not less than what the Father is, hence what is given by the Father to the Son is Himself who is all good. The Love given being not less than what the Father is must be God because the Father is God.
Here it is true the no one deserves God except God himself.

Is the Father consumed when He gives himself to the Son as His act of Love? the answer is no because God is infinite which is limitless…hence he cannot be consumed. The Love given by the Father to the Son is continuous or we call active Love. This Love we talk about is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Now i know why they call it ‘a mystery’.

You have emphasized throughout your reply that God is one in essence, and that the holy spirit and jesus exist within the father. What i am struggling to understand is if God is three persons existing in one essense, when Jesus or the holy spirit were on earth, how is it Jesus was existing within the father if jesus was on earth? In other words, how does one claim God is One yet believe there is divine Jesus on earth and a divine father in the heavens and a divine holy spirit somewhere else? Obviously the three persons are not One if they are not together.

You said:

what one does is done by all without any help from the other… where one is all is there… when you count one all are counted…

What you said seems to suggest some very inappropriate and irrational ideas about God. When jesus was eating, was the father and the holyspirit eating? when jesus was sleeping, the father and the holyspirit were sleeping? When jesus was being suckled as a baby, the father and the holy spirit were being suckled? was the father and the holyspirit in the womb of mary? When Jesus suffered the pain on the cross and died for 3 days, the father was also suffering pain and was dead for 3 days? God was dead for 3 days?

And there are more that can be asked, after all jesus lived like any other human being in terms of his bodily functions. I however refuse to believe and ascribe God with such things because God is High above such things being ascribed to Him. Also, God looks after the affairs of the heavens and the earth, Jesus wasnt doing that while he was on earth.

What im trying to get at here is that this understanding of 3 persons as one God is very faulty and incomprehensable. You cannot say God is one yet you have 3 separate persons with 3 separate roles, doing separate actions, and are at different places. ANd you also cannot claim they are always together and doing the same thing simultaniously because thats also incomprehensable and irrational.

Moving on to your explanation regarding ‘Person’, you said:

The distinction is that the Father begets the Son, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.But it is wrong to say that the Father existed first, then the Son second, then HolySpirit third. What is correct is that the Father eternally begets the Son and the HolySpirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son.

There are two definitions to ‘beget’:

1. to father
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce

Now you said in your quote above that the father eternally begets the son… the father is eternally producing and causing Jesus to exist?? Again, an incomprehensable and irrational concept.

Also, if God has always been triun, such a concept of God HAD to have existed from the time of Adam and Eve and propagated by the very first of the Prophets (Abraham, Moses, etc). Believing in the trinity is considered by the church to be so central to faith in God and to achieving salvation, isnt it? How come then, this trinity concept of God never existed in the previous scriptures and messages, until the advent of christianity? Surely God does not preach a concept about himself to a previous people, then a totally different concept later on.

You went on to say:

What is correct is that…There is no way God can think of Himself except that which He really is…Hence God’s thought of Himself is absolutely like Himself. If God exists on its own…then God’s thought of Himself being absolutely like Himself must exist on its own otherwise it is not absolutely like Himself.
THEREFORe there are two existence in one God existing on its own a. God we call Father
b. God’s living thought of Himself we call the Son or Word or the Logos.

You lost me here. I dont understand what you are trying to say. The rest of what you said seemed to stem from the above quote so until i understand what you are trying to say above i cannot comment further.

I think though, my previous comments suffice as a reply in questioning the trinity concept. I still dont see the montheism in the trinity, all i see certian principles were made in a (failed) attempt to turn a tritheistic concept into a monotheistic concept. And i say failed because these principles are terribly confusing, irrational, and incomprehensible. Moreover, it is a concept that the natural disposition of a human (in how they preceive God) would have to be completely manipulated and changed to accept.

 

[exoflare]

You already know what it is, but we know you’re still going to go around shouting “three gods!” no matter what. So stop wasting everybody’s time.

 

[RWBhbrws1]

the trinity is a misnomer. One god three attributes. just like someone can be a mother a sister and a daughter. simple as that

 

[Genesis315]

RWBhbrws1:

the trinity is a misnomer. One god three attributes. just like someone can be a mother a sister and a daughter. simple as that

That’s not the traditional understanding. Do you go to a church that teaches “oneness” theology?

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

Christianity has always claimed to be monotheistic, but im struggling to understand how the trinity is a monotheistic concept. If the claim is that ‘God is 3 persons in 1’ then from what i see it is actually a tritheistic concept (the belief that there are three equally powerful gods who form a triad).

I would like an explanation from the christian perspective on the trinity and how it is not ‘tritheistic’.

Maybe I can help you, Hashi, to gain a little clearer understanding of the big picture. This is from a Reformed Presbyterian perspective that has learned more about how Christian doctrine has developed through the centuries.

Maybe some will be negative towards this, but I don’t mean anything irreverant towards God at all, so be gentle.

First - the basic belief that there is One God (as Muslims also believe) has been a foundation throughout Judaism and on into Orthodox Christianity.

Second - I suppose that if we were to go back in time, and sit down and chat with Abraham or Moses, maybe they would not like our “A.D. era” Trinitarian understanding of God. And, if that were the case, I suppose that would be ok. God had not revealed that to them. That doesn’t keep us, Christians, from using the Pentateuch (1st 5 books of Old Testament) to support arguments for the Trinity. Looking back, we can now see more fully what those early writings were subtly telling us about God.

Third - With the coming of Christ, the writing of the books of the New Testament, and the Apostle’s (and Christ’s Himself’s) interpretation of the Old Testament, there was a profound enhancement of just “Who” God is and our knowledge of Him.

I won’t overburden you with many verses, but one in particular seems very relevant:

Colossians 2:9 - For in Him (Christ) all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

That word “Deity” is sometimes translated “Godhead” in some English translations.

Now, as you might imagine, there are several potential ways to understand the relationship between God the Father (who you recognize as “Allah”), the “Son of God” and the “Holy Spirit.” Through the first few centuries, many of those potential ways, or ideas, of viewing those 3 Persons were set forth. Many early leaders of the Christian Church were called upon to examine these views and consider at least 3 things:

1. The testimony of Scripture
2. The writings of prominent Christians who lived earlier in history.
3. The conclusions that any given “idea” of God and the 3 Persons in question would lead to.

In response to those above 3 things, the Trinitarian theology and related Dogmas and yes, a few great Creeds were developed.

Your question quickly gets into philosophical territory. Early Trinitarian views were better sorted out, generally speaking, in a predominantly Platonic fashion. That may seem surprising, but yep, some of Plato’s views helped give concreteness to the developing Christian view of God.

In my next post, I’ll refer you to a writing of one of those early “Church Fathers” that you may enjoy reading.

 

[Genesis315]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

Christianity has always claimed to be monotheistic, but im struggling to understand how the trinity is a monotheistic concept. If the claim is that ‘God is 3 persons in 1’ then from what i see it is actually a tritheistic concept (the belief that there are three equally powerful gods who form a triad).

I would like an explanation from the christian perspective on the trinity and how it is not ‘tritheistic’.

Three persons, one divine nature–not three divine natures.

Yeah, the Trinity is tough to understand. God wouldn’t be so great if the little lump of grey flesh in our heads could comprehend everything about Him. In fact, since this concept is so difficult to fully grasp, I guess we should give the all-knowing Allah a free pass when he screws it up :

When criticizing Christianity, “Allah” claims that the Christian Trinity is the Father, Jesus, and Mary and nowhere is the Holy Spirit even mentioned at all as being worshipped as God. You’d think if he was going to condemn the Trinity he should probably have chosen to condemn the persons who actually make up the Trinity :yawn:

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (4:171)

“And (remember) when Allaah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): “O Jesus son of Mary! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allaah?’ (5:116)

 

[Reformed_Rob]

RWBhbrws1:

the trinity is a misnomer. One god three attributes. just like someone can be a mother a sister and a daughter. simple as that

Cordially allow me to correct what I think is a misleading term there. Maybe we’re just on 2 different trains of thought, but I don’t think “One God three attributes” is correct. God has many, many “attributes,” for instance:

Incorruptible
Powerful
Giver of Life
Love
Holy
Righteous
Just
Merciful
Eternal
Pure

Those are attributes rightly ascribed to any Person of the Trinity. Our understanding of those attributes and how God is perfectly “attribute x” is limited, but they find their perfection in the Trinity.

 

[RWBhbrws1]

Genesis315:

That’s not the traditional understanding. Do you go to a church that teaches “oneness” theology?

No. That is how the bible puts it, Jesus is one with the father. If God is the most powerful being that exist why does he need a son to help him. The Son Jesus Christ is a part of God himself. Jesus is an extension of God Himself, put into this world as a man to connect to man personally. The Holy Spirit is Gods spirit put into us. It is that thing in everyone that causes us to have a conscience and to wonder if there is anyone out there greater than us. We can feel it and connect with it, if we chose, and it will help us to connect with Jesus who in turn is connected to God

 

[RWBhbrws1]

attributes may not have been the right word bu thats all that i could think of at the eime

 

[exoflare]

RWBhbrws1:

No. That is how the bible puts it, Jesus is one with the father. If God is the most powerful being that exist why does he need a son to help him. The Son Jesus Christ is a part of God himself. Jesus is an extension of God Himself, put into this world as a man to connect to man personally. The Holy Spirit is Gods spirit put into us. It is that thing in everyone that causes us to have a conscience and to wonder if there is anyone out there greater than us. We can feel it and connect with it, if we chose, and it will help us to connect with Jesus who in turn is connected to God

I don’t know what to start with, but there are a lot of misunderstandings you have here. In any case, I think you’re making the same mistake most Muslims on here do by carelessly interchanging the words “God” and “Father” when they don’t have the exact same meaning.

 

[RWBhbrws1]

I think many christians have a misunderstanding of God. God isn’t like everyone thinks He is. Its not as simple as many think. And if you catholic i can understand why.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

id
Reformed Rob:

In my next post, I’ll refer you to a writing of one of those early “Church Fathers” that you may enjoy reading.

As promised, here’s a link for you,

It’s a letter written by St. Gregory of Nyssa (4th Century) to a friend named Ablabius, helping him out on understanding aspects of the Trinity.

On “Not Three Gods”

Keep in mind, it’s written by a Christian to another Christian, and may not address many specifics that are on your mind. But, I think it will help you better understand what we mean and don’t mean by “One Divine Being Who subsists in Three Divine Persons” ie. the Trinity.

Think about this for a moment:

How many persons is a rock? Or a tree? Obviously, there is no “personhood” to a rock. But a rock has “being,” as does a tree. If you don’t like the word “being” being applied to a rock, then let’s simply say that a rock has a metaphysical reality.

A person has a nature, or being, that nature is typically referred to as “human” or simply “man” (no offense to the women). Personhood to Being is not always a 1:1 ratio.

Rock - Person = 0 Being = 1
Skip La Cour - Person = 1 Being = 1

God - Person = 3 Being = 1

Does that make sense? It’s not illogical. It would be illogical to say that there were one God (monotheistic) and yet 3 Gods (poly/tritheistic), that would be illogical. God transcends our tangible example of the rock, but that example shows that the reasoning is at least not illogical.

God is One (in Being) and Three (in Persons), hence the concise definition:

"One Divine Being Who subsists in Three Divine Persons"

A Catholic should be able to go on to better explain the authority which we can actually KNOW truths about God. Like, the means of relaying knowledge and certainty about supernatural topics, such as God, Angels, Hell, etc.

…even if our reasoning be found unequal to the problem, we must keep for ever, firm and unmoved, the tradition which we received by succession from the fathers, and seek from the Lord the reason which is the advocate of our faith: and if this be found by any of those endowed with grace, we must give thanks to Him who bestowed the grace; but if not, we shall none the less, on those points which have been determined, hold our faith unchangeably. - St. Gregory of Nyssa

 

[Edris]

**When criticizing Christianity, “Allah” claims that the Christian Trinity is the Father, Jesus, and Mary and nowhere is the Holy Spirit even mentioned at all as being worshipped as God. You’d think if he was going to condemn the Trinity he should probably have chosen to condemn the persons who actually make up the Trinity :yawn: **

(Glowing statue of Mary at “Our Lady of the Snows, in Belleville Illinois” is seen in the foreground, and all the raised hands of the Catholic parishioners in open and obvious worship.)

“- The word “Trinity” appears in the Holy Qur’an in verses 4:171 and 5:73. In these two verses the name of Mary is not mentioned as “the third Person of the Holy Trinity”. Not withstanding that as an argument, here are the observed facts.

The carved or molten images and/or statues of Jesus Christ and his mother Mary, in various sizes and shapes, are to be found in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, all around the world.

Most of these Sacred Statues or Images are placed in the prominent places of the Prayer Halls of these Christian Churches for the purpose of venerating and worshipping of these entities.

• One would also notice that the majority of the attending congregates would kneel, worship, venerate and pray before these Holy Images as their reverent rituals and inherited traditions. Many devoted believers would place lighted candles in front of these Sacred Statues or Images before worshipping or paying their homage to them.
• These Catholic and Orthodox congregates who venerate Lord Jesus as their God and Virgin Mary as the “Mother of God”, do form the bulk of the Christians community. It has been so since the inception of the Roman Catholic Church. The Protestants, who separated from the Roman Catholics, nearly ten centuries after the advent of Islam, do not have the Statues of Mother Mary in their Churches.
• In 1998, according to the Encyclopedia Britannia there were 1040 million Catholics and only 361 million Protestants.
• These observations clearly indicate that Virgin Mary has been venerated with hyperdulia, along with her son Jesus, by the majority of the Christians, from the early years of the Catholicism.
• As for the Holy Ghost, the third person of the Holy Trinity, no Christian Church has so far instituted its venerating representation, image or semblance for their Churchgoers. “ 1

---

“Read the official rosary of the Catholic Church!

“Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!”
evangelicaloutreach.org/rosary.htm “

“Membership in the Militia means complete dedication to the Kingdom of God and to the salvation of souls through Mary Immaculate.” -Pope John Paul II

"We have an advocate in Mary that the father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot say no to. It is impossible for them to say no to her! -Fr. Stephan Scheier

“a tradition enjoying resurgence under Pope John Paul II. (The pope’s personal motto, “Totus tuus sum, Maria,” or “I am all yours, Mary,” reflects his belief that the Virgin intervened to save his life from an assassin’s bullet in 1981 so that he could help defeat European communism.)” -LATIMES.com Sept 1, 2002 By REED JOHNSON, Times Staff Writ

On May 7 Pope John Paul II dedicated his general audience to “the Virgin Mary” and urged all Christians to accept Mary as their mother. He noted the words spoken by Jesus on the cross to Mary and to John–“Woman, behold thy son!” and “Behold thy mother!” (John 19:26,27), and he claimed that in this statement “IT IS POSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND THE AUTHENTIC MEANING OF MARIAN WORSHIP in the ecclesial community … which furthermore is based on the will of Christ” (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997).

John Paul II underlined that “the history of Christian piety teaches that MARY IS THE PATH THAT LEADS TO CHRIST, and that filial devotion to her does not at all diminish intimacy with Jesus, but rather, it increases it and leads it to very high levels of perfection.” He concluded by asking all Christians “to make room (for Mary) in their daily lives, ACKNOWLEDGING HER PROVIDENTIAL ROLE IN THE PATH OF SALVATION” (Ibid.).

---

Seems to me we have a Quatrotheistic religion here. They can’t even keep track of how many Gods or who are the Gods they worship.

Shame on you. This is not the religion of Abraham pbuh.

Peace

 

[r.gonzales]

christians can’t even agree on how to explain their mystery doctrine. classic.

Genesis315:

When criticizing Christianity, “Allah” claims that the Christian Trinity is the Father, Jesus, and Mary and nowhere is the Holy Spirit even mentioned at all as being worshipped as God. You’d think if he was going to condemn the Trinity he should probably have chosen to condemn the persons who actually make up the Trinity :yawn:

yawn, indeed. the verses you quote don’t even say what you claim they do.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

The replies thus far have done nothing to tackle the faults that i have tried to outline in my reply to memoch_lover. I believe i have outlined some serious issues related to the trinity, which i still see as tritheistic although it is claimed to be monotheistic.

Reformed Rob, i appreciate your reply and i will just make a brief reply:

This is from a Reformed Presbyterian perspective that has learned more about how Christian doctrine has developed through the centuries.

Second - I suppose that if we were to go back in time, and sit down and chat with Abraham or Moses, maybe they would not like our “A.D. era” Trinitarian understanding of God. And, if that were the case, I suppose that would be ok. God had not revealed that to them. That doesn’t keep us, Christians, from using the Pentateuch (1st 5 books of Old Testament) to support arguments for the Trinity.

In the first quote, you used the word ‘developed’ in describing the christian doctrine. This is bizarre to me because the belief system of God isnt something that goes through a developing stage. It should be the same from Adam upto today, and stay the same until eternity.

We all agree the nature of God has always been the same from before creation to now and forever. No body has the right to develop a belief system for God, only the Prophets and Messengers relate to us how to believe in God. And their messages never change with regards to how to believe in God, the only aspect of their message that might change is in the laws they bring. How Adam and Abraham and Moses and the rest of humanity before Jesus believed in God wasnt a faulty concept, then why a new system of belief in God after Jesus? And why is it now a faulty concept to believe in God alone without attributing divinity to Jesus or the holy spirit?

Bottom line, if salvation is in believing in the trinity, then the trinity should have been the doctrine revealed to mankind from the time of Adam. God doesnt reveal different doctrines concerning Himself.

In your second reply, im sorry i did not understand the mathematics or logic you were trying to illustrate with the rocks personhood example. Ill take a look at the link though. But at the end of your reply, you quoted from the link this from the author:

…even if our reasoning be found unequal to the problem, we must keep for ever, firm and unmoved, the tradition which we received by succession from the fathers, and seek from the Lord the reason which is the advocate of our faith: and if this be found by any of those endowed with grace, we must give thanks to Him who bestowed the grace; but if not, we shall none the less, on those points which have been determined, hold our faith unchangeably. - St. Gregory of Nyssa

Christians emphasize to ‘just have faith’, and reading on the trinity concept, i understand why. In reality, thats the only way a person can fully accept such a concept, by forcing themselves to have faith in it, regardless of how much it doesnt make sense. And this is unfortunate that we are rational with everything and everyone else in the world, proving and disproving, analyzing and critiquing, and always relying on our God-given ability to think and apply our intellectual limits. But with how we believe in God, we dont just throw that ability away, we fight against it!

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

I would also kindly ask as the one who began this thread to please keep the thread on topic. If a discussion should need to arrise about the QUranic verses speaking on the trinity, then that should continue in a separate thread so as to give it its proper attention there and give the topic of this thread its proper attention.

 

[exoflare]

Hashi, you’ve been answered already as to what we believe. If you and the Quran want to go around broadcasting lies anyway, go right ahead. Nobody cares.

 

[exoflare]

r.gonzales:

christians can’t even agree on how to explain their mystery doctrine. classic.

Typical Muslim double-standard, here. All I have to do by his logic is find one self-proclaimed “Muslim” who differs in belief from him and this proves Islam completely wrong.