The Trinity - monotheistic or tritheistic?

[memnoch_lover]

I respond to Hashi al eritre

1. How is Jesus was exusting in the Father if Jesus is on earth? The Father, the Son, and the HolySpirit are three distinct persons, each is God whole and entire but One essence hence one God. The Son who is the same Essence with Father and Spirit took human flesh which he is not and was born of a woman and was called Jesus. The divine nature of the Son cannot be renounced because God does not change,hence when the Son took flesh the divine nature retains its purity hence he remains true God. The human flesh assumed by the Son was true Human flesh hence He was true Man The two natures divine and human are united in one person called Jesus**. Hence Jesus is true God and true Man. Jesus as to his divine nature, he is one essence with the Father, that is why the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father, their divine essence is one without distinction hence each exist in each other.** As to Jesus humanity , he is one with humanity… Hence Jesus becomes the bridge or mediator between God and man.

It does not matter where each person is located, time and space is immaterial to God…God Father and Son and HolySpirit is outside of time and space… they are omnipresent. When the Son took flesh, he became subject to time and space and to law as to his humanity…but the Son remains divine in his human flesh as to his divinity its transcend time and space since it cannot be subject to time and space. Hence in Jesus qualities of God and Man can be observe.

1. When Jesus was eating was the Father and Spirit eating too since the act of one is the act of all? I said the three persons are one in divine essence. Hence the act of one appropriate to being God is the act of all. The act of eating, suckling, crying, sleeping are human acts of Jesus which is proper as to his humanity. Therefore the act of eating, sleeping etc, of Jesus not being act proper to being God , cannot be an act of the Father and the Spirit. An example of a divine act of Jesus which I consider an act of all is when Jesus said “ your sin is forgiven” . it is divine act since God alone forgive sin.
2. God looks after the affair of heaven and earth, Jesus was not doing this affair while he was on earth. I completely disagree when God created man God distined man to share his glory in heaven. But man was separated from God by sin of man. Only a reparation which has an infinite value can restore to friendship of God and man so that man can share with the glory of God as was planned by God. It was the incarnation of Jesus… that fulfills the reparation demanded by the infinite justice of God. Jesus being true man represented all men the sinners and being true God his sacrifice is of infinite value which is due to infinite justice of God.Therefore Jesus time on earth was an affair affecting heaven and earth.
3. You cannot say God is one yet you have 3 separate persons with 3 separate roles, doing separate actions, and are at different places. ANd you also cannot claim they are always together and doing the same thing simultaniously because thats also incomprehensable and irrational. Well God has free will…the Father and Son and Spirit are distinct from each other and each is God whole and entire but we confess they are one because they have one essence. It does not necessary means that they are acting simultaneously… as you have seen only the Son by his own free will took human form and born of a woman. We count them as one God since they have one essence.

And it is not necessary to claim they are always together… because God is outside of time and space it is immaterial where they located . All I know God is perfect hence their essence being one I am sure the three persons are in perfect unity and perfect unity is superior than being together

To be continued…

 

[r.gonzales]

exoflare:

Typical Muslim double-standard, here. All I have to do by his logic is find one self-proclaimed “Muslim” who differs in belief from him and this proves Islam completely wrong.

no double standard. just pointing out a fact and commenting on it. my intent wasn’t to use this differring as proof that your religion is false. the nature the “trinity” itself, without all the varied explanaitons of it, is enough to do that on it’s own.

 

[exoflare]

r.gonzales:

no double standard. just pointing out a fact and commenting on it. my intent wasn’t to use this differring as proof that your religion is false. the nature the “trinity” itself, without all the varied explanaitons of it, is enough to do that on it’s own.

I got quite a few varied explanations of how Mary was the “sister of Aaron” in that other thread I started a while back, and never could anyone provide evidence. Yet somehow this is an exception?

Your other double standard here is saying that because you don’t (want to) understand something, that alone proves it false. Like nothing in existence can be explained in more than one way! Gimme a break.

 

[r.gonzales]

exoflare:

I got quite a few varied explanations of how Mary was the “sister of Aaron” in that other thread I started a while back, and never could anyone provide evidence. Yet somehow this is an exception?

Your other double standard here is saying that because you don’t (want to) understand something, that alone proves it false. Like nothing in existence can be explained in more than one way! Gimme a break.

there’s one fundamental difference between the trinity and the “sister of aaron”. one is an issue of foundational creed pertaining to Allah Himself. one has nothing to do with creed pertaining to Him.

the two issues aren’t even comparable here. you want to compare, bring contradictions in the explanations of tawheed in islam.

 

[exoflare]

r.gonzales:

there’s one fundamental difference between the trinity and the “sister of aaron”. one is an issue of foundational creed pertaining to Allah Himself. one has nothing to do with creed pertaining to Him.

the two issues aren’t even comparable here. you want to compare, bring contradictions in the explanations of tawheed in islam.

Look, I didn’t say anything about specifically referring to creed or God. And why is that the only thing even worth discussing all of a sudden… because you said so? I don’t have to change the subject just because you tell me to. I’m not going to derail the post anymore, so I’ll just content myself with bringing to light another instance of your cherrypicking and selective logic.

 

[cute2904]

Hashi:

And this is unfortunate that we are rational with everything and everyone else in the world, proving and disproving, analyzing and critiquing, and always relying on our God-given ability to think and apply our intellectual limits. But with how we believe in God, we dont just throw that ability away, we fight against it!

If, after so many years of scientific research, the physical universe, in which we live, is still beyond our complete understanding, why should we think it strange that we cannot fully understand the invisible Creator of this universe? In fact if we could completely understand God, then we would be equal to Him!

Fight against it? how? how would you describe about god that has so many hatred towards the jews and christians?. Is this rational to you? this is irrational for me but for you it may rational as you believe your god in faith. Do you know what faith is mean? Or did you forget that you must have faith to accept God in your heart? If you are using your best ability and your intellectual limits concept but without faith. You would have been an atheist by now.

 

[r.gonzales]

exoflare:

Look, I didn’t say anything about specifically referring to creed or God. And why is that the only thing even worth discussing all of a sudden… because you said so? I don’t have to change the subject just because you tell me to. I’m not going to derail the post anymore, so I’ll just content myself with bringing to light another instance of your cherrypicking and selective logic.

no, exoflare, not because i said so. and there’s no cherry picking going on here, nor is there any selective logic being used. look at the topic of this thread - it’s about a fundamental aspect of creed and belief pertaining to Allah; is the doctrine of the trinity monotheistic or tritheistic? like it or not, that’s the topic of discussion.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Memmoch_lover, i do not mean to be rude, and i greatly appreciate your efforts in attempting to answer my concerns, but im afraid it has raised more confusion.

memnoch_lover:

Hence Jesus is true God and true Man. Jesus as to his divine nature, he is one essence with the Father, that is why the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father, their divine essence is one without distinction hence each exist in each other. As to Jesus humanity , he is one with humanity… Hence Jesus becomes the bridge or mediator between God and man.

It does not matter where each person is located, time and space is immaterial to God…God Father and Son and HolySpirit is outside of time and space… they are omnipresent. When the Son took flesh, he became subject to time and space and to law as to his humanity…but the Son remains divine in his human flesh as to his divinity its transcend time and space since it cannot be subject to time and space. Hence in Jesus qualities of God and Man can be observe.

From what i gather in the first quote, you are saying the father, son, and holyspirit were on earth in Jesus’ human body? However as i read further in your reply, you seem to suggest otherwise because in the second quote and the rest of your response, you refer to Jesus as the Son who took flesh.

In any case, if you claim Jesus was full human and full God (in that God was in Jesus’ body and on earth), then yes God had to have been subjected to space, time, and to law of the human body because you are limiting God to being encompassed in a human body. However, God is God because He runs the affairs of creation above the heavens and the earth, limitless in His power and ability, not bound by the limitations of His creation. I dont gasp how one can claim God (ie. father, son, holy spirit as the trinity says) was in the body of Jesus yet maintain God’s infinite power and ability and knowledge and all the rest of His attributes, and also maintain that God is not bound by time, space, and the laws of creation. Another irrational and incomprehensable notion.

Hence the act of one appropriate to being God is the act of all.

Therefore the act of eating, sleeping etc, of Jesus not being act proper to being God , cannot be an act of the Father and the Spirit.

So when its appropriate, its an act of all 3 persons of God, but when its an act thats not appropriate to God, its not an act of all 3 but just Jesus???

I hope you can understand my frustration here because that to me is yet another proof of how faulty this trinity concept is. Where did the word ‘appropriate’ come from? Isnt Jesus God anyways? Does the title of God somehow go away when Jesus does a human act inappropriate to God? Its either he was God or he wasnt.

Jesus was not doing this affair while he was on earth. I completely disagree when God created man God distined man to share his glory in heaven. But man was separated from God by sin of man. Only a reparation which has an infinite value can restore to friendship of God and man so that man can share with the glory of God as was planned by God. It was the incarnation of Jesus… that fulfills the reparation demanded by the infinite justice of God. Jesus being true man represented all men the sinners and being true God his sacrifice is of infinite value which is due to infinite justice of God.Therefore Jesus time on earth was an affair affecting heaven and earth.

You said Jesus was not looking after the affairs of the heavens and the earth while he was on earth and explained that he had a different mission. But you did not answer who was. If Jesus, who is supposed to be God, wasnt looking after the affairs of the heavens and the earth, decreeing and sustaining, etc, then who was doing this? And its very difficult to answer this because the way i see it, if it was the father, then that proves the trinity is tritheistic because you have separated Jesus and the father as separate Gods doing separate things. If it was Jesus then thats impossible because he was limited in a human body.

continued…

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

continued…

Well God has free will…the Father and Son and Spirit are distinct from each other and each is God whole and entire but we confess they are one because they have one essence. It does not necessary means that they are acting simultaneously… as you have seen only the Son by his own free will took human form and born of a woman. We count them as one God since they have one essence.

And it is not necessary to claim they are always together… because God is outside of time and space it is immaterial where they located . All I know God is perfect hence their essence being one I am sure the three persons are in perfect unity and perfect unity is superior than being together

The arguments i have made thus far center around whether the trinity preaches God is truely One or not. Thus far, what i have seen is a failed attempt to maintain God as One due to the inability to rationally explain the states and actions of the 3 persons of the trinity.

As soon as you separate the 3 persons in their state of being and their actions, you separate them into 3 Gods. You can claim over and over again that they have one essence, but when examined rationally it just doesnt hold water. You cannot claim God is One yet speak of the persons of the trinity doing separate things and in separate places.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

cute2904:

why should we think it strange that we cannot fully understand the invisible Creator of this universe? In fact if we could completely understand God, then we would be equal to Him!

cute2904, is this about understanding God’s nature or understanding how to believe in Him? Obviously the latter. I think you need to separate the two.

Fight against it? how? how would you describe about god that has so many hatred towards the jews and christians?. Is this rational to you?

God hates those who disbelieve and/or attribute partners in worship with Him. I dont see what is irrational about that, and who God hates and loves isnt the topic of discussion anyways.

Do you know what faith is mean? Or did you forget that you must have faith to accept God in your heart? If you are using your best ability and your intellectual limits concept but without faith. You would have been an atheist by now.

This is an extremely faulty way of understanding.

Three points must be mentioned in regards to how we arrive at the truth:

1. the Truth is approached through intellectual means, weighed through evidence and judged by of the mind God has given us.
2. Realizing the truth comes before faith and emotional attachment.
3. Faith and emotional committment to a doctrine does nothing to illustrate its truthfulness. Rather, it blinds and individual from seeing the truth.

The truth is always single in nature, but falsehood comes in many forms. Pagans are upon falsehood because they worship God through an irrational manner by attributing divinity to idols, animals, humans, and cosmos. Athiests are upon falsehood because they reject God through an irrational manner by negating that this universe has a creator.

People realize the truth because they realize the irrationality of the false beliefs and the rationality of the truth. Faith and emotional attachment, however, will do nothing for an individual in realizing the truthfulness of a doctrine. The place for faith and emotional attachment is to maintain and uphold it ONCE the truth is realized intellectually.

I dont mean to step on anyone’s toes or insult anyone, but i have raised these issues because after all we are supposed to be seekers of truth. We are not blindfollowers of whatever we attach our emotions to. Our obligation as seekers of truth is to analyze and examine the truth before we accept and embrass it, not the other way around.

The truth regarding God never goes against simple ration, nor is it full of confusion and mystery and incoherence. How we believe in God should be clear as day to our minds and hearts, perfect in structure, and easily explainable to all mankind.

 

[exoflare]

1. the Truth is approached through intellectual means, weighed through evidence and judged by of the mind God has given us.

1. Realizing the truth comes before faith and emotional attachment.
2. Faith and emotional committment to a doctrine does nothing to illustrate its truthfulness. Rather, it blinds and individual from seeing the truth.

Your theory is correct. Now all you have to do is start putting it into action rather than just paying it lip service.

 

[Golf_Nut]

This is the biggest problem i have with catholicism. This notion of the trinity flies in the face of the commandment that there is only one God.

 

[exoflare]

Golf_Nut:

This is the biggest problem i have with catholicism. This notion of the trinity flies in the face of the commandment that there is only one God.

Based on what? We were told there was only one God. Were we told anything about God being defined as one person?

 

[Golf_Nut]

exoflare:

Based on what? We were told there was only one God. Were we told anything about God being defined as one person?

Ok, here i go . . . One of the ten commandments says that there is only one God. Thats pretty clear. No need for any interpretatio other than the literal one. This is not a parable.

Ok, having established that, the problem becomes, if there is only one God, how can we pray to Jesus. We are told in the commandments that we are not to pray to idols or any other than God. If we accept that Jesus performed miracles and ascended from the dead then he is a deity, he godlike, so simple mathematics would say we have an overarching God and a lesser deity, Jesus. To complicate matters further, we have the Holy Spirit. Unless the Holy Spirit is another name for God, then there is a problem. But Jesus is clear that the Holy Spirit is distinct.

For Jews and Muslims, Catholicism is regarded as breaking the commandment that there is only one God because we are supposed to recognize Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

People try to explain away this difficulty by saying well it is beyond human comprehension or it is a mystery of faith. The commandment that there is one God is not beyond my comprehension. It is clear. Yet reconciling Jesus and HS is difficult.

How can there be one God yet three? At this point the explanations by most is that it is one entity but three different aspects. But Jesus and the HS are very distinct from God in the New Testament.

Problems of logic and circular arguments abound.

For me, in the Old Testamtent God made a covenant with the Jews. The OT prophesized the coming of a saviour. that is Jesus. He appears in the NT. He makes a new Covenant with Everyone. So, in this sense, the Commandments are pre-Jesus . . . . I dunno.

I believe in Jesus, i think his message is wonderful, I believe in God, but I cannot reconcile those beliefs with the Trinity at all.

 

[exoflare]

Golf_Nut:

I believe in Jesus, i think his message is wonderful, I believe in God, but I cannot reconcile those beliefs with the Trinity at all.

Okay, like I said, never was anything mentioned about one God consisting of “one person”. This is purely your assumption. You’re unneccesarily restricting the nature of God with statements that were never made.

It is said in the New Testament that when a man and a woman marry, they become “one flesh”. When those two people have a child, that child is obviously of that same flesh as the parents. Making these type of assumptions about the Trinity is like asking “how can three people (mother, father, and child) all be of that same ‘one flesh’??”

 

[r.gonzales]

Golf_Nut:

I believe in Jesus, i think his message is wonderful, I believe in God, but I cannot reconcile those beliefs with the Trinity at all.

in all my life, both as a christian growing up, and now as a muslim, this is one of the most honest posts i’ve ever read from a christian regarding this topic.

kudos for you for being honest enough to admit the difficulty in it.

 

[Maranatha]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

From what i gather in the first quote, you are saying the father, son, and holyspirit were on earth in Jesus’ human body? However as i read further in your reply, you seem to suggest otherwise because in the second quote and the rest of your response, you refer to Jesus as the Son who took flesh.

When Christians say that the Father is in Jesus we do not mean that he was incarnate the same way that Jesus was incarnate.

God is the original creator and is outside the universe. God is also omnipresent and in everything. He is in each person, each molecule and even in empty space. His will sustains everything in it’s existence. Without His presence, each thing would not exist.

Therefore, God the Father was in Jesus as Jesus is in the Father.

Question: Can Alla become man and still remain apart from the universe so as to sustain everything in it’s existence?

 

[Maranatha]

God is Love.
God is Perfect.
God is Infinite.

You can only have one infinity. This is the essence of God. If there were two essences, they could not both be infinite because each one would be to the exclusion of the other and thus not infinite.

Since God is perfect He loves himself. While self love is commendable it is insufficient. Love is not complete until it is given and returned between separate persons. Since God is perfect and deserves perfect Love in return, this can only be accomplished by a separate person with the same essence. This is represented in Christianity as the Father and Son. The perfection of the Love between God and His Son is also infinite and is represented in Christianity as the Holy Spirit.

This is my understanding.

Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with each of you.

 

[exoflare]

Maranatha:

God is Love.
God is Perfect.
God is Infinite.

You can only have one infinity. This is the essence of God. If there were two essences, they could not both be infinite because each one would be to the exclusion of the other and thus not infinite.

Since God is perfect He loves himself. While self love is commendable it is insufficient. Love is not complete until it is given and returned between separate persons. Since God is perfect and deserves perfect Love in return, this can only be accomplished by a separate person with the same essence. This is represented in Christianity as the Father and Son. The perfection of the Love between God and His Son is also infinite and is represented in Christianity as the Holy Spirit.

This is my understanding.

Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with each of you.

Yeah, I think you’re right. I wish other people would stop interchanging “God” and “person” automatically, but for those of us who can separate the forest from the trees that’s a pretty accurate depiction.

It’s also interesting how it works more or less the same way with humans. Once God created Adam, He realized Adam would not be complete without someone to reciprocate his own love perfectly. Hence, Eve was created. The result of their love is the creation of another human being. Just one of the ways God creates us in his own image!

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

continued…

As soon as you separate the 3 persons in their state of being and their actions, you separate them into 3 Gods. You can claim over and over again that they have one essence, but when examined rationally it just doesnt hold water. You cannot claim God is One yet speak of the persons of the trinity doing separate things and in separate places.

Hashi,

Hope you get a chance to read that letter, printed out it’s like just over 7 pages. Not too long, but kind of meaty. You’ll understand if I can’t comment on everything said up to here. And maybe I’m misunderstanding what you are having trouble with. Yet maybe something I say may be of benefit.

On the topic of persons and doing things… There can be several people (all with the same nature, “human”) doing work. We say that there are several “carpenters” or “window washers” or “journalists,” that is, we use the plural to enumerate several people of the same profession and nature doing the same type of work. However, that is not so with the Trinity.

You may ask “why?” and that’s understandable. Because with people doing a job, they each have their own aspect of that job. I may be overseeing some work, and I realize that each person has their own part to play in it getting done. In that way, the several people doing the same job are called “many” because there are several tasks.

Now, with the Persons of the Divine Nature, all 3 Persons work conjointly without any special action apart from eachother. It is rightly called “one job” that the 3 Persons are doing.

That may sound like I’m just considering the work of men as different from God’s work, when it’s really the same, but consider this::
Whatever comes to pass by the action of God, comes to pass by the action of the Three, and what comes to pass is not 3 things, but one thing.

Our life is from God, but we “Trinitarians” do not believe that we have “3 lives” just because there are 3 Divine persons bestowing life upon us.

The unity of the work done by the Godhead is very important. I suppose you may have questions about what’s been discussed above about the Son being incarnate on earth while the Father was in heaven and why we believe that the Holy Spirit is “sent” by both the Father and the Son. I know, things like that make it clear that we believe that, like in the case of 3 people making a pizza, there are different “aspects” of the job to be done, a somewhat similar situation is the case with the Trinity. But I believe if you read that letter that I linked to, especially towards the end when St. Gregory gets into “nature” and “cause,” maybe you’ll be helped along to understanding it more clearly.