S
snarflemike
Guest
OK, glad all is clear. Thanks.
- Status
P
Pythons
Guest
Another thing to try with them is to show from the Bible how God promised over and over again from the Prophets…
…That in the end a kingdom would be set up by God that would never end.
…This simply couldn’t have happened if Christ failed.
Also, Jesus was very explicit that only fools didn’t believe ‘all’ that was said about Him…
…In the Scriptures of the Law, Psalms and Prophets.
…Everything “had to happen” - and Christians say these are the proofs Jesus was indeed The Christ ( God Himself ).
F
FabiusMaximus
Guest
I like using the water analogy. Water comes in three forms - solid, liquid, and gas - yet while it comes in these three forms, it is essentially the same substance.
Z
Zosimus41
Guest
This calls for wisdom: John 10 30 “I and the Father are one.”
John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth
Philippians 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth
Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
E
ErinGoBragh
Guest
I use the clover analogy most often but I was really trying to get other peoples opinions on how they would teach it. Say if some didn’t understand the clover analogy, i would use the water one that maximus pointed out. or the scriptures in John and Isaiah. I was just curious of others methods in understanding the trinityGiven that you list yourself as Irish Catholic,have you looked to St Patrick for ideas. There was a pretty concise explanation wrapped in a three leaf clover, if I remember correctly.
P
PaulDupre
Guest
Jesus never claimed to be God the Father and Christians don’t believe or teach that He is God the Father.
This is where most non-trinitarians get confused. They ask “When Jesus was praying in the garden, was he praying to himself?” No, of course not, and no one claims that he was praying to himself. Christians believe that Jesus was praying to the Father, who is a distinct person, but is one in being with the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Non-trinitarians get hung up on the idea that the terms “being” and “person” mean the same thing. They do not.
A dog is one being, zero persons.
A human is one being, one person.
God is one being, three persons.
It is human nature to exist as one person tied to one being.
It is God’s nature to exist as a family of three persons. God is completely unique in this respect. Meditate on that for a while and you will see what I mean.
Non-trinitarians must either believe that there is more than one God (unbiblical), or they must believe that Jesus is not God (also unbiblical).
Paul
P
PaulDupre
Guest
The water analogy expresses a modalist view of God, which is heretical. I would not use that analogy if I were you. It just confuses people.
Paul
C
Cavaradossi
Guest
Technically, a dog is also a person, if you mean to use the Greek term hypostasis which is the term that is translated as ‘person’ in trinitarian theology. Everything that exists concretely in fact has an hypostasis. There is also actually nothing magical about being consubstantial. Man is in fact also one substance with many persons, as is dog or cat (notice that is man as opposed to a man, which denotes an hypostasis). In the same way, there is one divine nature with three hypostases. We call the three one on account of their unity in nature (there is truly one Godhead) and also their unity in energy (no one person acts alone, such that we cannot separate them and say that the Son is a God, only that the Son is God). This is what the Cappadocian Fathers taught about the trinity, like Gregory of Nyssa in his treatise Not Three Gods or St. Basil in his epistle 38
N
Nicea325
Guest
Blessings my Orthodox brother. How is life treating you these days?
C
Cavaradossi
Guest
Life is well. I’ve been reading my way through John of Damascus’ philosophical chapters, a most excellent crash course on Greek philosophy up until the eighth century. How are you?
N
Nicea325
Guest
Wow! Sounds deep! I am doing okay,not great but hanging in there. All of these Sola Scriptura threads are making me dizzy…:whacky:
I continue to pray for unification. Man! I can only imagine what it would be like? To be ONE…again? Wow! I really do admire the Orthodox liturgies…very nice.
F
FabiusMaximus
Guest
No, because those three forms can exist simultaneously. The modalist view assumes that God changes form from one to another. I’m making the argument that the persons are all existing at the same time.
But I can see where you’re coming from.
O
onemangang
Guest
I posted this on my Fb page to try to show that Love is Objective
A Love defined
I invite you to look deep within your heart , in a personal reflection on the love that you have received, and have given throughout the years!
This is an overview of how love is defined by the Webster’s Third New International Dictionary Unabridged.
Love
If LOVE is not an objective truth, then can we strive for it, and if not, does it have any real value, or meaning?
Here are some voices talking about Love!
Someday, after mastering the winds, the waves, the tides and gravity, we shall harness for God the energies of love, and then, for a second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.
Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
I believe in the compelling power of love. I do not understand it. I believe it to be the most fragrant blossom of all this thorny existence.
Theodore Dreiser
Love does not dominate; it cultivates.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Who would give a law to lovers? Love is unto itself a higher law.
Boethius
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law.
St. Paul Romans 13:10
Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end.
St Paul 1 Corinthians 13:4-8
Love is an irresistible desire to be irresistibly desired.
Robert Frost
Love is that splendid triggering of human vitality the supreme activity which nature affords anyone for going out of himself toward someone else.
Jose Ortega y Gasset
Love is always bestowed as a gift - freely, willingly and without expectation. We don’t love to be loved; we love to love.
Leo Buscaglia
Love isn’t something you find. Love is something that finds you.
Loretta Young
Love’s greatest gift is its ability to make everything it touches sacred.
Barbara de Angelis
Where there is love there is life.
Mohandas Gandhi
Love is my religion - I could die for it.
John Keats
All my life, my heart has yearned for a thing I cannot name.
Andre Breton
We see love is being described by what is does in action or emotion, but not in definition.
As you have read, you can see the passions, emotions, and active reactions to Love!
How do you define love?
Do you define love, or are you defined by it?
I think that LOVE is an absolute truth and is not subject to my interpretation, musings, or pondering, solely because I believe God is Love!
I don’t just mean that God loves, but that He IS love, in the very essence of His being!
I see love as profoundly relational and personal yet beyond our definitions. I believe that LOVE defines who we are in relation to LOVE itself.
I believe Love can be recognized, because it has already been made known to us. How? When we are looking to recognize something, we are in fact RE-COGNIZING, we are thinking again something that has already been thought into being. This is precisely how we are able to philosophically ponder truths about the known universe, before we have the ability to study and measure the already KNOWN universe scientifically! Why! Because at the very core of our being, it lies within us, like a seed, only that seed has yet to receive light, yet to be watered, and yet to have life given oxygen breathed into it!
Love has us hungering and desiring more.
How can we look out into the world and RE-COGNIZE Love!
I’m not sure if I can DEFINE love, but I know it, when I see it!
For sake of clarifying love let us look upon the human family from the perspective of the transcendent greater good, maybe this will help illuminate LOVE!
A Love defined
I invite you to look deep within your heart , in a personal reflection on the love that you have received, and have given throughout the years!
This is an overview of how love is defined by the Webster’s Third New International Dictionary Unabridged.
Love
- The attraction,desire,or affection felt for a person who arouses delight or admiration or elicts tenderness, sympathetic interest, or benevolence.
- Warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion to the object of such attachment, or devotion.
- The benevolence attributed to God as a resembling a fathers affection,or devotion.
- The attraction bases on sexual desire: The affection of tenderness felt by lovers. (b) a god or personification of love.
5.A beloved person often used as an endearment. - A thin silk fabric formerly worn in a token of mourning or a border made of this stuff
- A score of zero in tennis and other games.
- cap, Christian Science: God
- A Delightful, superb example, instance, or occurrence
If LOVE is not an objective truth, then can we strive for it, and if not, does it have any real value, or meaning?
Here are some voices talking about Love!
Someday, after mastering the winds, the waves, the tides and gravity, we shall harness for God the energies of love, and then, for a second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.
Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
I believe in the compelling power of love. I do not understand it. I believe it to be the most fragrant blossom of all this thorny existence.
Theodore Dreiser
Love does not dominate; it cultivates.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Who would give a law to lovers? Love is unto itself a higher law.
Boethius
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law.
St. Paul Romans 13:10
Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end.
St Paul 1 Corinthians 13:4-8
Love is an irresistible desire to be irresistibly desired.
Robert Frost
Love is that splendid triggering of human vitality the supreme activity which nature affords anyone for going out of himself toward someone else.
Jose Ortega y Gasset
Love is always bestowed as a gift - freely, willingly and without expectation. We don’t love to be loved; we love to love.
Leo Buscaglia
Love isn’t something you find. Love is something that finds you.
Loretta Young
Love’s greatest gift is its ability to make everything it touches sacred.
Barbara de Angelis
Where there is love there is life.
Mohandas Gandhi
Love is my religion - I could die for it.
John Keats
All my life, my heart has yearned for a thing I cannot name.
Andre Breton
We see love is being described by what is does in action or emotion, but not in definition.
As you have read, you can see the passions, emotions, and active reactions to Love!
How do you define love?
Do you define love, or are you defined by it?
I think that LOVE is an absolute truth and is not subject to my interpretation, musings, or pondering, solely because I believe God is Love!
I don’t just mean that God loves, but that He IS love, in the very essence of His being!
I see love as profoundly relational and personal yet beyond our definitions. I believe that LOVE defines who we are in relation to LOVE itself.
I believe Love can be recognized, because it has already been made known to us. How? When we are looking to recognize something, we are in fact RE-COGNIZING, we are thinking again something that has already been thought into being. This is precisely how we are able to philosophically ponder truths about the known universe, before we have the ability to study and measure the already KNOWN universe scientifically! Why! Because at the very core of our being, it lies within us, like a seed, only that seed has yet to receive light, yet to be watered, and yet to have life given oxygen breathed into it!
Love has us hungering and desiring more.
How can we look out into the world and RE-COGNIZE Love!
I’m not sure if I can DEFINE love, but I know it, when I see it!
For sake of clarifying love let us look upon the human family from the perspective of the transcendent greater good, maybe this will help illuminate LOVE!
O
onemangang
Guest
A Love of Sacrifice
Love is one being who desires another being. This object Man, desires an object of adoration, Woman.
The feeling of emotion and desire Man has for women is so powerful a bond, He will sacrifice Himself if necessary for the continuation of life of His object of adoration, Woman. This would be a sacrificial love of a giving up of ones self for another.
This feeling and desire is not exclusively to man, but reciprocated by the woman as well. In them, is a love that demands sacrifice.
A Love in Unity
Man in his desire, wants to give himself completely to his object of adoration, Woman. Woman intern has the same desire and passion of man, the desire to give all of oneself to another. There is a longing for unity that lies in them.
Man in a sense can give all of himself to woman and woman can intern give all of herself to man through coitus. The longing for unity is yet still unsatisfied, it is given at least physically in coitus, where Man giving a complete representation of himself through his DNA to woman, and woman receiving and giving up herself in her DNA, which is the complete representation of who she is at least physically. If this is done through love, there will be a bond that goes beyond the physical and into the transcendent. It is a Love of unity where the two become one!
A Love that Grows
Now that man has given a complete representation of who he is to Woman, and She the complete representation of Herself to Man, Love will grow. The Coming together of Man and Woman physically will give birth to Love. The culmination of the Love expressed through a mutual giving of ones self to another will grow. It begins in the womb, but continues through the birth of the child. That love will grow trough out the ages, bringing together Man and Woman in a deeper common union with one another through the mutual adoration of the beloved child. The shaping and guiding wrought through mutual adoration, will give all, at any cost or sacrifice, for the benefit of the child. There is a cultivating through the personal relationship, and journey, that all participants share in. Each individual in unity desires the utmost for one another and will make personal sacrifice in order to obtain it for the other party. Love is deepened through growth!
A Love that is Jealous
The journey of Man, Woman and Child, that is lived for the mutual benefit of one another is a jealous one. It is one that is jealous, but not in the sense of the meaning we have assessed the word jealous today. What I mean is, Man wants nothing to separate him from Woman and Child, just as Woman wants nothing to separate her from Man and Child. It is a love that cultivates unity, through a personal journey steep in sacrifice. It is a love of desired unity, a consuming fire of mutual adoration, a jealous love!
This Love has meaning, and value, not by definition, but by how we are defined by it, because God IS Love.
Love lacks definition because it is so radical, that it transcends our ability to understand it!
“We all look through a glass darkly, but one day, we will know, as we are known” To paraphrase St. Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians.
God is Love! I can say that as a Christian because God IS an interpersonal relationship within Himself!
Why I say that God is Love.
God, the Father has a object of adoration within himself, God the Son Jesus Christ!
God the Son’s object of adoration is God the Father!
God the Father and God the Son’s mutual adoration of one another, has brought forth the procession of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Holy Trinity! From the Father through the Son, the Holy Spirit proceeds.
God the Father and God the Son both share in the mutual adoration of the Holy Spirit!
God is not a physical being, He is Spirit, so He does not share the same limitations which, we all are bound!
Like a Family you have a Father giving all of Himself to the Son, and the Son all of Himself to the Father, the completion of that self giving, within the Godhead, is manifest in the Holy Spirit!
Within God there is a Love of Unity, Sacrifice, Jealousy and a Never Ending, Continuing, Cultivating Growing Love!
God’s Love grows, not in essence but in volume!
God is calling ALL of us to partake in that Love through a divine sonship. That is what the sacrifice on calvary was all about. We are called into a personal relationship of Divine Love, called to be members and active participants of a Divine family, as divine sons and daughters through Christ, partaking in His divine nature. We are brought in to a common union with our Father, His Son and His Spirit, Three Persons, One God, an that common union continues with our fellow men and women, by entered into this Divine family. Not only the living, but those that have gone before us, and there are many entering right NOW. Will you?
God is calling each and everyone of us towards Himself with a radical love that is a consuming fire!
Heed the call and become part of a Divine family of love today!
Mahatma Ghandi who often would carry around Jesus famous Sermon on the Mount discourse in Matthew Chapter 5 of the New Testament once had a conversation with a Christian Missionary. This is how it went.
When the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Gandhi he asked him, “Mr. Gandhi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?”
Gandhi replied, “Oh, I don’t reject Christ. I love Christ. It’s just that so many of you Christians are so unlike Christ.”
“If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today,” he added.
I implore you to, look not on the often hypocritical people who profess Christ, but look upon the Person of Jesus.
Read the Gospel, God may change your heart , and you may find, that you have changed your mind!
The only requirement you need to partake in the divine family, is to be receptive, so heed the call of LOVE and follow the grace that you are given!
We see the relation that God has within Himself in the Nicene creed which has been prayed aloud in Catholic Churches since 325 A.D.
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
I may have not be able to define Love, but Love has defined me!
Thank you Jesus!
God Bless you all!
Love is one being who desires another being. This object Man, desires an object of adoration, Woman.
The feeling of emotion and desire Man has for women is so powerful a bond, He will sacrifice Himself if necessary for the continuation of life of His object of adoration, Woman. This would be a sacrificial love of a giving up of ones self for another.
This feeling and desire is not exclusively to man, but reciprocated by the woman as well. In them, is a love that demands sacrifice.
A Love in Unity
Man in his desire, wants to give himself completely to his object of adoration, Woman. Woman intern has the same desire and passion of man, the desire to give all of oneself to another. There is a longing for unity that lies in them.
Man in a sense can give all of himself to woman and woman can intern give all of herself to man through coitus. The longing for unity is yet still unsatisfied, it is given at least physically in coitus, where Man giving a complete representation of himself through his DNA to woman, and woman receiving and giving up herself in her DNA, which is the complete representation of who she is at least physically. If this is done through love, there will be a bond that goes beyond the physical and into the transcendent. It is a Love of unity where the two become one!
A Love that Grows
Now that man has given a complete representation of who he is to Woman, and She the complete representation of Herself to Man, Love will grow. The Coming together of Man and Woman physically will give birth to Love. The culmination of the Love expressed through a mutual giving of ones self to another will grow. It begins in the womb, but continues through the birth of the child. That love will grow trough out the ages, bringing together Man and Woman in a deeper common union with one another through the mutual adoration of the beloved child. The shaping and guiding wrought through mutual adoration, will give all, at any cost or sacrifice, for the benefit of the child. There is a cultivating through the personal relationship, and journey, that all participants share in. Each individual in unity desires the utmost for one another and will make personal sacrifice in order to obtain it for the other party. Love is deepened through growth!
A Love that is Jealous
The journey of Man, Woman and Child, that is lived for the mutual benefit of one another is a jealous one. It is one that is jealous, but not in the sense of the meaning we have assessed the word jealous today. What I mean is, Man wants nothing to separate him from Woman and Child, just as Woman wants nothing to separate her from Man and Child. It is a love that cultivates unity, through a personal journey steep in sacrifice. It is a love of desired unity, a consuming fire of mutual adoration, a jealous love!
This Love has meaning, and value, not by definition, but by how we are defined by it, because God IS Love.
Love lacks definition because it is so radical, that it transcends our ability to understand it!
“We all look through a glass darkly, but one day, we will know, as we are known” To paraphrase St. Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians.
God is Love! I can say that as a Christian because God IS an interpersonal relationship within Himself!
Why I say that God is Love.
God, the Father has a object of adoration within himself, God the Son Jesus Christ!
God the Son’s object of adoration is God the Father!
God the Father and God the Son’s mutual adoration of one another, has brought forth the procession of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Holy Trinity! From the Father through the Son, the Holy Spirit proceeds.
God the Father and God the Son both share in the mutual adoration of the Holy Spirit!
God is not a physical being, He is Spirit, so He does not share the same limitations which, we all are bound!
Like a Family you have a Father giving all of Himself to the Son, and the Son all of Himself to the Father, the completion of that self giving, within the Godhead, is manifest in the Holy Spirit!
Within God there is a Love of Unity, Sacrifice, Jealousy and a Never Ending, Continuing, Cultivating Growing Love!
God’s Love grows, not in essence but in volume!
God is calling ALL of us to partake in that Love through a divine sonship. That is what the sacrifice on calvary was all about. We are called into a personal relationship of Divine Love, called to be members and active participants of a Divine family, as divine sons and daughters through Christ, partaking in His divine nature. We are brought in to a common union with our Father, His Son and His Spirit, Three Persons, One God, an that common union continues with our fellow men and women, by entered into this Divine family. Not only the living, but those that have gone before us, and there are many entering right NOW. Will you?
God is calling each and everyone of us towards Himself with a radical love that is a consuming fire!
Heed the call and become part of a Divine family of love today!
Mahatma Ghandi who often would carry around Jesus famous Sermon on the Mount discourse in Matthew Chapter 5 of the New Testament once had a conversation with a Christian Missionary. This is how it went.
When the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Gandhi he asked him, “Mr. Gandhi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?”
Gandhi replied, “Oh, I don’t reject Christ. I love Christ. It’s just that so many of you Christians are so unlike Christ.”
“If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today,” he added.
I implore you to, look not on the often hypocritical people who profess Christ, but look upon the Person of Jesus.
Read the Gospel, God may change your heart , and you may find, that you have changed your mind!
The only requirement you need to partake in the divine family, is to be receptive, so heed the call of LOVE and follow the grace that you are given!
We see the relation that God has within Himself in the Nicene creed which has been prayed aloud in Catholic Churches since 325 A.D.
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
I may have not be able to define Love, but Love has defined me!
Thank you Jesus!
God Bless you all!
- Status