The Truth about God

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The_heretic said:
Why would God need to send someone to save us if he is perfect? Wouldn’t a perfect God be able to establish perfection in any other way? Isn’t there any other way that God could save us from our sins, if he were perfect? How come in order to save someone, one of us needs to die? Is death part of God’s image of perfection? Why would it be necessary to die in order save a world? What? The Gods could do it no other way?
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Being that God is infinite perfection would we be wise in questioning His motives for reconciling mankind to Himself??How many gods do you believe in? You talk about perfection which can only be one and yet you mention a multiplicity of gods. Remember God is infinitely perfect, we are not. And really, what exactly is your point in all this. Bottom line: what exactly is your message here???:confused:
 
KindredSoul said:
Thanks!!! I’m very touched, and don’t know what to say to that! Thank you very much for your kind words, though I feel unworthy of them; I just try to do and say what I can for the Faith, based on reasoning, scripture and the Church’s teachings. I thank you again for complimenting my efforts! It really is a blessing. Well, I need to get to bed for now, though. Thanks again, and God bless!
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Yes, I’m going to bed also and I truly mean what I said…Keep up the fantastic work…God Bless and good-night:)
 
By what logic do you say that everything that exists becomes imperfect?

Consider this, and consider it well. I’ll go step by step.

The Universe could be other than it is.

If it could be other than it is, it’s not necessary that it exist at all.

If it is not necessary that it exist at all, then its existence is dependent on something whose existence is necessary.

In order for that thing’s existence to be necessary, it must be a contradiction in terms for it not to exist. In other words, the only thing whose existence is necessary is existence itself.

In order to contain the massively high orders of being contained in the universe, this thing must have more being than all of them. Since one can always add another ontological step, this thing’s being must be infinite. If its being is infinite, it must also be perfect and eternal.

If it is perfect, it cannot lack anything that is present in the things contingent on it. Since the universe contains reason, this perfect being (which is pure existence) must also be rational, but perfectly and infinitely so.

This Thing We Call God. Quod erat demonstrandum.

PS. Since His existence is necessary but the universe’s isn’t, we may deduce that he is what is known as a subsistent form, an essence that doesn’t need matter to survive. However, since he must be eternal, he must not be a direct part of the universe he maintains. If he was, he would be mortal, because all composite substances are mortal–their forms can be separated from their matter. He is a subsistent form of which all being partakes, as all white things partake of whiteness (except that whiteness is not subsistent).
 
The_heretic said:
God if God is perfect needs not to manifest itself, why? because one must consider if God were to actually exist in perfection then he would have no reason to exist. Why would God have to actually exist if God is perfect? Why come into existence; for what need? What reason? What purpose? That which is perfect need not to exist because it finds no reason of why to exist. God only is and acts within existing beings and men. The preceding sentence, you cannot grasp.
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Well, you would first have to clarify for us which is more perfect: Existence or non-existence?

You see, God cannot not exist simply because perfection itself cannot become manifest in a state of absolute non-existence. In other words, **the very state of perfection itself **would likewise **not exist **if God or anything were absolutely non-existent.
 
WOW! This is really deep…We’ll go 'round in circles, we’ll fly high like the birds up in the sky, fly high…:whacky:
 
Perhaps there is a God out there…however, what is the one thing that even an all-powerful and all-knowing God cannot conceive–is that which doesn’t exist. I believe that a God must even have a God above him; and what better way than the concept of non-existence, to be placed above a God; in that–God becomes empty and in the emptiness, to completion, is that which gives itself away, freely. God, if he were to ponder non-existence, he would have to conceive that non-existence relates to emptiness; therefore if God were omnibenevolent then he would have to be empty of thought and all-giving in nature. In the eyes of non-existence, since not even an all-powerful and all-knowing God can conceive of such a thing, in the way to be completely non-existent; therefore, God becomes a Child in the sight of non-existence, if he were to place non-existence above himself; as that which directs his will in clarity of thought–in that emptiness of space…
 
Now you’ve gone and played with words so much that your post seems very incoherent. The most I can make of your post is that now you seem to concede the possibility of God, who is more powerful than any other existing being, but you say that some hypothetical non-existent being is greater than God and beyond Him simply because He (you assume–there may be a Church teaching to the contrary, though I neither know nor care if this is true, and you’ll see why later in this post) might not grasp Non-existence.

Clearly you’re trying to say that there is a concept of emptiness, that by definition happens not to exist, that is greater than God because it doesn’t exist and can thus grasp Non-existence. That isn’t so; it’s impossible for anything, fanciful, existent, or otherwise, to be greater than God.

There is no higher deity than God.
Non-existence is not higher than God.
God is not a child in comparison to Non-existence–that would require non-existence to have a more sophistocated intelligence and power than God, which is not only impossible but by definition isn’t even arguably possible.
Non-existence hasn’t even a consciousness, so therefore it cannot conceive of existence or non-existence; therefore, non-existence suffers a great handicap, and is infinitely inferior to God.

Furthermore, I must repeat, Non-existence doesn’t grasp non-existence. Non-existence is completely and entirely ignorant, knowledgeless, and useless, because non-existence doesn’t exist; this is a rather simple fact, and as clever as you seem to be with words, I imagine that you know that and simply enjoy trying to rock the boat–for which I imagine exist far better methods. This one has no real substance (literally 😉 ), and if not for your skill with words, the discussion wouldn’t have even lasted this long.

Finally, non-existence even as a concept is useless. Think about this…why can’t even non-existence grasp Non-existence? Why? I’ll tell you why: There’s nothing to grasp; there’s absolutely no shame or weakness in not grasping what’s not there; in the end, non-existence isn’t too complicated to understand or grasp; it’s not ungrasp-able or impossible to understand–there’s simply nothing to be understood. It’s useless and abstract, and therefore it remains true that God (who exists) is the greatest, most perfect being possible, Who is indeed superior to not only all existence but to non-existence as well.

I apologize to say the following, but have to say that I find it strange that one would idolize and perhaps practically worship the concept of non-existence, putting it on such a pedastle as to make it superior to any existant being. Non-existence is inferior to God; in fact, I dare say, the epitome of Non-existence is infinitely inferior even to a fictional amoeba. I, for one, do not envy a fictional amoeba, and so I can safely say that God has nothing to envy, worship, or even remotely admire in Non-existence. God is supremely superior, and He knows it. So do those of us who worship Him.

Anyway, it’s late, and I’m tired, and have work to do (I’m a horrid procrastinator).
 
We’ll always have people who think they know better than Jesus, the apostles and the Church. We’ll always have heretics, and people will always project their ideas on what God is.

For My thoughts ar not your thoughts neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord”. Isa 55:8

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in the eyes of God, for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own ruses,”

and again: “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.” 1 Cor 3:19

Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually.
15
The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone.
16
For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1Cor 2:14
 
This non-existence = perfection discussion reminded me of a parody of the ontological argument which goes something like this:
  1. The creation of the universe is the most marvellous achievement imaginable.
  2. The merit of an achievement is the product of
    (a) its intrinsic quality, and
    (b) the ability of its creator.
  3. The greater the disability or handicap of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
  4. The greatest conceivable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
  5. Therefore, if we believe that the universe is the creation of an existent creator, we can conceive of an even greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
  6. An existing God, therefore, would not be a being than which a greater cannot be conceived, because an even more formidable and incredible creator would be a God which did not exist.
7.(Hence) God does not exist :eek:
 
lak611 said:
Are you a gnostic? It seems like you are saying that spirit is good and matter is evil. Is this what you believe? This is the heresy of docetism. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docetism
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But Basilides also himself affirms that there is a non-existent God, who, being non-existent, has made the non-existent world, that has been formed out of things that are not, by casting down a certain seed, as it were a grain of mustard-seed, having in itself stem, leaves, branches, and fruit. Or this seed is as a peacock’s egg, comprising in itself the varied multitude of colours. And this, say the Basilidians, constitutes the seed of the world, from which all things have been produced. For they maintain that it comprises in itself all things, as it were those that as yet are non-existent, and which it has been predetermined to be brought into existence by the non-existent Deity. newadvent.org/fathers/050110.htm
 
I just wanted to say…well…I think that…hmmm…nevermind…

This is a very strange thread. The OP is one of the more macabre theological ideas I’ve come across in a while.

Am I understanding this thread correctly, non-existence = perfection?

That just doesn’t make sense.
 
Mr.Ex_Nihilo said:
I just wanted to say…well…I think that…hmmm…nevermind…

This is a very strange thread. The OP is one of the more macabre theological ideas I’ve come across in a while.

Am I understanding this thread correctly, non-existence = perfection?

That just doesn’t make sense.
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The Heretic indeed does have some very unorthodox ideas. His other thread where he questions the Christian belief of the Bible as God’s Word is likewise strange.
 
The_heretic said:
God is pure Spirit. God is so perfect that he doesn’t have to exist. If God were to exist, he would not be perfect because that which exists becomes imperfect in the way that it needs to manifest itself. Perfection can never manifest itself because if it did we would be able to look at God from different perspectives; as one man’s God is another man’s devil.
Perfection should, to be if it is perfect, transcend and surpass the uttermost boundaries of reason; and what is beyond the capabilities of any beings reason; but that which doesn’t exist; therefore God is so perfect that he doesn’t have to exist. This is beyond any being’s comprehension because no being can grasp non-existence.
In Spirit, we draw from concept and experience to manifest the reason that suggests God exists; however, no one can truly know or grasp the perfection of God because we, if we were to assume God is perfect then we must transcend and surpass the uttermost boundaries of reason to that which doesn’t exist.
God only is and acts within existing beings and men.
Whoever comes across this stone shall stumble. But whoever this stone falls upon shall be as dust.
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Would you prefer being non-existent to be perfect then?

Right, if you don’t exist, you wouldn’t have to worry about being imperfect…is that what you’re getting at ??

We all desire to exist and existence is good.
It is good to be perfect and to strive to be perfect, you have to exist first.

God, whose name is I AM, is existence itself, is perfect; therefore, good. Without his existence, you wouldn’t exist and that’s not good. But since you exist, you must strive to be perfect.

I didn’t lose you did I ??
 
KindredSoul said:
Now you’ve gone and played with words so much that your post seems very incoherent. The most I can make of your post is that now you seem to concede the possibility of God, who is more powerful than any other existing being, but you say that some hypothetical non-existent being is greater than God and beyond Him simply because He (you assume–there may be a Church teaching to the contrary, though I neither know nor care if this is true, and you’ll see why later in this post) might not grasp Non-existence.

Clearly you’re trying to say that there is a concept of emptiness, that by definition happens not to exist, that is greater than God because it doesn’t exist and can thus grasp Non-existence. That isn’t so; it’s impossible for anything, fanciful, existent, or otherwise, to be greater than God.

There is no higher deity than God.
Non-existence is not higher than God.
God is not a child in comparison to Non-existence–that would require non-existence to have a more sophistocated intelligence and power than God, which is not only impossible but by definition isn’t even arguably possible.
Non-existence hasn’t even a consciousness, so therefore it cannot conceive of existence or non-existence; therefore, non-existence suffers a great handicap, and is infinitely inferior to God.

Furthermore, I must repeat, Non-existence doesn’t grasp non-existence. Non-existence is completely and entirely ignorant, knowledgeless, and useless, because non-existence doesn’t exist; this is a rather simple fact, and as clever as you seem to be with words, I imagine that you know that and simply enjoy trying to rock the boat–for which I imagine exist far better methods. This one has no real substance (literally 😉 ), and if not for your skill with words, the discussion wouldn’t have even lasted this long.

Finally, non-existence even as a concept is useless. Think about this…why can’t even non-existence grasp Non-existence? Why? I’ll tell you why: There’s nothing to grasp; there’s absolutely no shame or weakness in not grasping what’s not there; in the end, non-existence isn’t too complicated to understand or grasp; it’s not ungrasp-able or impossible to understand–there’s simply nothing to be understood. It’s useless and abstract, and therefore it remains true that God (who exists) is the greatest, most perfect being possible, Who is indeed superior to not only all existence but to non-existence as well.

I apologize to say the following, but have to say that I find it strange that one would idolize and perhaps practically worship the concept of non-existence, putting it on such a pedastle as to make it superior to any existant being. Non-existence is inferior to God; in fact, I dare say, the epitome of Non-existence is infinitely inferior even to a fictional amoeba. I, for one, do not envy a fictional amoeba, and so I can safely say that God has nothing to envy, worship, or even remotely admire in Non-existence. God is supremely superior, and He knows it. So do those of us who worship Him.

Anyway, it’s late, and I’m tired, and have work to do (I’m a horrid procrastinator).
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WOW! Great answer as usual, KindredSoul. If I may add, in my own simplistic way, that this poor individual found some abstract idea that perhaps he wants to write a book on someday and wants reaction.Ask him to draw money out of his non-existent bank account to satisfy his non-existent creditors. Now he switches from a multiplicity of gods to a regression of gods in a non-existential realm. My biggest concern is that he identifies himself as Catholic in his profile rather than confused. I sure hope that he doesn’t attach these self-manufactured ideas to his identity and present it to others as dogma. Heritic…hmmm…
 
teachccd said:
My biggest concern is that he identifies himself as Catholic in his profile rather than confused. I sure hope that he doesn’t attach these self-manufactured ideas to his identity and present it to others as dogma. Heritic…hmmm…
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Yeah, this is true. One thing that I’ll never understand about a “Catholic” heretic is this: by definition, to be a Catholic is to be one who believes and accepts the beliefs of Catholicism. Why would one even want an identity that doesn’t really describe him or her at all? It would be like wanting to call yourself Pro-Life and supporting abortion; by definition, the two contradict one another. It’s pointless, really. Why claim to be something you don’t really believe in? Of course, this is rhetorical for this topic, as it’s a discussion for another thread.
 
The_heretic said:
Perhaps there is a God out there…however, what is the one thing that even an all-powerful and all-knowing God cannot conceive–is that which doesn’t exist. I believe that a God must even have a God above him; and what better way than the concept of non-existence, to be placed above a God; in that–God becomes empty and in the emptiness, to completion, is that which gives itself away, freely. God, if he were to ponder non-existence, he would have to conceive that non-existence relates to emptiness; therefore if God were omnibenevolent then he would have to be empty of thought and all-giving in nature. In the eyes of non-existence, since not even an all-powerful and all-knowing God can conceive of such a thing, in the way to be completely non-existent; therefore, God becomes a Child in the sight of non-existence, if he were to place non-existence above himself; as that which directs his will in clarity of thought–in that emptiness of space…
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Oh boy, another philosophy major! :banghead:

To quote that old Catholic Shakespeare, it’s “full of sound and fury…”
 
The_heretic said:
God is pure Spirit. God is so perfect that he doesn’t have to exist. If God were to exist, he would not be perfect because that which exists becomes imperfect in the way that it needs to manifest itself. Perfection can never manifest itself because if it did we would be able to look at God from different perspectives; as one man’s God is another man’s devil.
Perfection should, to be if it is perfect, transcend and surpass the uttermost boundaries of reason; and what is beyond the capabilities of any beings reason; but that which doesn’t exist; therefore God is so perfect that he doesn’t have to exist. This is beyond any being’s comprehension because no being can grasp non-existence.
In Spirit, we draw from concept and experience to manifest the reason that suggests God exists; however, no one can truly know or grasp the perfection of God because we, if we were to assume God is perfect then we must transcend and surpass the uttermost boundaries of reason to that which doesn’t exist.
God only is and acts within existing beings and men.
Whoever comes across this stone shall stumble. But whoever this stone falls upon shall be as dust.
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🙂 I sometimes wonder
 
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