The Truth About Islam

  • Thread starter Thread starter KingAlfred
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The Myth of Islamic Intellectual Achievement
Islamic Intellectual Achievement is not a myth, It is realiyy
Contrary to popular myth, Islam was never the foundation of significant cultural or scientific development. Indeed, there was a time when Islamic culture was more advanced than that of Europe, but that superiority corresponded directly with the period when Muslims were able to learn from and copy the achievements of Byzantium and other conquered civilizations. For example, the architectural design of mosques, a source of pride among Muslims, was copied from the shape and structure of Byzantine churches. Another indication of Islam’s inability to advance culture and science is its prohibition of music and artistic renderings of the human form.
It is a western lie that Muslims gave their achievement from Romans. Quran and Prophet Muhammad ordred us to seek knowledge and it is the reason of Islamic golden period. In Islamic view God will give every one’s gratuity on the base of his nous.
While there are countless examples of how and why Islam opposes human progress, the primary source of its backwardness is the Quran. Muslims consider it the perfect book and source of all truth and knowledge. As a result, the majority of Muslims concluded long ago they simply did not need knowledge originating in other sources, and certainly not that which came from infidels. Therefore, after they stole what they could from Byzantium and Persia, and after they forced sufficient numbers of Jews and Christians to convert to their religion, or accept its brutal oppression, Islam descended into intellectual stagnation, from which it has not yet emerged.
Islam doesnot oppose human progress and order us to try to be better.

Why you din’t stop your lies?
 
For J C, I may explain the creation of Jinn from Fire. It is written in Quran that that Iblees said to God, “You have created ne from fire…” The word “From” is important here. I suggest every one to look at verse 21:37 which says about man having been created from “haste”. i.e. “'ajal”. See below:

**[21:37] خُلِقَ الْاِنْسَانُ مِنْ عَجَلٍ‌ؕ سَاُورِيْكُمْ اٰيٰتِىْ فَلَا تَسْتَعْجِلُوْنِ‏

[21:37] Man is made of haste.** I will certainly show you My Signs but ask Me not to hasten.
Now haste is not any material from which the man was made. J C and anothe rfriend is telling me that I have proved mistakes of the Quran. I would request them not to be hasty. Let them wait and see.

It is the beautiful aesthetic language of the Quran which they do not try to understand. After some consideration, they will understand that God did not get hold of mud to make Adam with own hands, even though it be written that He made Adam with His own hands

Please wait… with Love from all sides…
 
Even though Friendship has blocked me because he’s a coward who can’t deal with real life, so he won’t see this, I feel compelled to mention that neither Lebanon or Syria are Islamic countries. Lebanon has no official state religion, but instead has a confessional system that requires the president to be a Maronite, the prime minister to be a Sunni, and the speaker of parliament to be a Shi’a. The Syrian constitution does require the president to be a Muslim, but it doesn’t say that Islam is the state religion. The government is Baathist, anyway, so it would be inaccurate to call it in any way an “Islamic” state. A Muslim-majority state, maybe, as Lebanon also is if we do not take into account the diaspora (where Christians form a super-majority).
 
This is the single funniest sentence in the history of planet Earth. Or whatever planet it is that Planten lives on.
How many plantens are there? Do you notice distinctly different writing styles and command of the English language?
 
Islamic Intellectual Achievement is not a myth, It is realiyy

It is a western lie that Muslims gave their achievement from Romans. Quran and Prophet Muhammad ordred us to seek knowledge and it is the reason of Islamic golden period. …
Then why aren’t Islamic countries 500 years ahead of the West? Why did the “period” end?
Islam doesnot oppose human progress and order us to try to be better.
Holy Islam: Holy Illiteracy, Holy Poverty, Holy Backwardness.
 
Then why aren’t Islamic countries 500 years ahead of the West? Why did the “period” end?
Because countries or civilizations that lead the world in science, technology, art and culture never lead forever. They always run out of steam eventually. There’s no perpetual motion machine when it comes to cultural and scientific innovation. It happens all the time, so no special explanation should be necessary when it comes to Islam.
Can you cite any serious scholars that subscribe to your absurdly unhistorical view that Islamic countries have always been backward vis-a-vis the west?
 

Can you cite any serious scholars that subscribe to your absurdly unhistorical view that Islamic countries have always been backward vis-a-vis the west?
I never said they were “always” backward. In any event, if Islam took over a region of the West and some scientists converted to Islam and produced the great achievements, is it a credit to Islam or the culture that it displaced?

Definiton: “serious scholar” – One that you agree with.

Not that it will change your mind, but consider this
Three things are absolutely essential for science, including modem sciences. One must understand that:
a. The world exists independent of us and is orderly.
b. We can understand it.
c. We should have no aversion to observing and working with nature (in particular to do experiments).
One of the most quoted verses of the Bible in the Catholic Middle Ages was: God ‘has ordered all things in measure, number and weight. As for items b and c above, Catholicism has always emphasized the dignity of the human person, which it attributes especially to man’s ability to reason and understand starting from nature; its sacramental system manifests its belief in the necessity of the physical for man. The historians R.R. Palmer and Colton make the comparison with the culture of Islam, for example, that finally decided it was not okay to analyze the world in rational terms. Use of reason and its effectiveness in understanding this world were ultimately against the cult(ure), for according to Islam, Allah is sovereign in a sense that excludes secondary causes; according to that culture, Allah’s activity is completely inscrutable to man. Palmer and Colton say:
“If any historical generalization may be made safely, it may be safely said that any society that believes reason to threaten its foundations will suppress reason. [St.] Thomas’ doctrine … gave freedom to thinkers to go on thinking. Here Latin Christendom [Catholicism] may be contrasted with the Muslim world. It was ruled, in about the time of Thomas Aquinas, that… the Gate was closed. Arabic thought, so brilliant for several centuries, went into decline.” – Palmer and Colton, A History of the Modern World, page 38.
Anthony Rizzi, The Science Before Science, page 187.
If you doubt Dr. Rizzi’s scholaship, here are some of his credentials:
Anthony Rizzi is a physicist with degrees from MIT (B.S., phys.) and Princeton (PhD, phys.) with over 20 years combined experience in experimental and theoretical physics, including solving an 80 year old problem in Einstein’s theory. He also has made important contributions to the Laser Interferometer Gravitational wave Observatory (LIGO) in Louisiana, has taught graduate courses at LSU, and has done research on manned and unmanned mars spacecrafts. As a staff physicist and design engineer at Lockheed-Martin, he received a NASA Award and a New Technology Award. He now directs the Institute for Advanced Physics in Baton Rouge, LA (www.IAPweb.org), where he continues his gravity wave related research. Dr Rizzi has been featured on EWTN, Focus Worldwide Network, Catholic World Report, Zenit News Agency and Relevant Radio.
authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=24807
 
God is not to change what is in a people until they change what is within themselves.(Quran13:11)
 
I never said they were “always” backward. In any event, if Islam took over a region of the West and some scientists converted to Islam and produced the great achievements, is it a credit to Islam or the culture that it displaced?
Oh, I see. So you acknowledge they once had a vastly superior culture to ours but that they stole all their achievements from the ancient Persians, so it’s not really their culture. Got it.

Did you know that when the first Western European crusaders arrived in the Middle East, the Muslims there didn’t know much about them because Europe at that time just wasn’t a very important place? Hard to believe, I know.
Definiton: “serious scholar” – One that you agree with.
No, just one that isn’t a polemicist and has some kind of credentials to know what he’s talking about.
 
If you doubt Dr. Rizzi’s scholaship, here are some of his credentials:
There’s a big difference between saying that Islam once produced a vibrant innovative civilization that went into decline (for whatever reason) and saying that it never produced such a civilization or that it couldn’t produce such a civilization because of some “intrinsic” qualities of Islam (which is an argument I’ve encountered here all too often). The latter argument is extremely crude historical revisionism.

I don’t mind anyone having serious problems with or even antagonism to Islam if it’s for good reasons but let’s not distort history.
 
Then why aren’t Islamic countries 500 years ahead of the West? Why did the “period” end?

Holy Islam: Holy Illiteracy, Holy Poverty, Holy Backwardness.
The Muslims had their good time long ago. The present day advancement in Science is not due to Christianity or due to any christian formulae. It is due to the fact that Church stopped fiddling with the experiments of the Scientists.

The punishment meted out to Galileo by the church leaders is a good reminder of the enmity of church against Science. sedonaman should try to read those bad news of their past. There is nothing scientific in the BibleNT. There is a lot of Science in the Quran. In Quran and Hadith, There is an order for every one to gain Knowledge. But no such advice can be seen in the bibleNT.

On what grounds is sedonaman trying to entangle with islam?? I request the Catholics here not to mislead the poor christians with their false statements. Those false statements do not help any one. They rather harm every one. It is harmful to the lot of christians.
 
Oh, I see. So you acknowledge they once had a vastly superior culture to ours but that they stole all their achievements from the ancient Persians, so it’s not really their culture.
No. They stole things from others too.
Did you know that when the first Western European crusaders arrived in the Middle East, the Muslims there didn’t know much about them because Europe at that time just wasn’t a very important place? Hard to believe, I know.
Especially when you consider they tried to conquer it at least once.
No, just one that isn’t a polemicist and has some kind of credentials to know what he’s talking about.
So you don’t think Dr. Rizzi knows what he is talking about?
 

I don’t mind anyone having serious problems with or even antagonism to Islam if it’s for good reasons but let’s not distort history.
Haven’t you heard that history is now a point of view and not the study of actual events?
 
I never said they were “always” backward. In any event, if Islam took over a region of the West and some scientists converted to Islam and produced the great achievements, is it a credit to Islam or the culture that it displaced?
To both. And historically it wasn’t that simple, in spite of the desperate efforts of propagandists.

The idea that Muslims were parasites for 500 years before coming to the end of the intellectual/cultural resources they had “stolen” is just silly. And of course one can make the same argument about the glories of Christian civilization. True, the difference is that Christian civilization kept going on the basis of its “thefts” from classical civilization and didn’t stagnate in the same way. But one could argue–and a secularist would–that this was because Western Europe increasingly broke away from the religious side of its heritage, not because Christianity is culturally more creative or adventuresome than Islam.

These kinds of arguments are futile.
Definiton: “serious scholar” – One that you agree with.
No, a serious scholar is someone who has credentials (which in recent decades generally means a Ph.D.) in a field relevant to the one in which they are writing, and whose work is respected and taken seriously by other scholars across the ideological spectrum. People can still make contributions without credentials, and people who make solid contributions are sometimes ignored unfairly, so this isn’t a perfect criterion. But it is a reasonable and commonly accepted definition that has *nothing *to do with whether I agree with the scholar in question. There may be true positions not maintained by any serious scholar, and there are certainly many false positions maintained by a serious scholar. But asking for a citation from a serious scholar (as I’ve defined the term) is a good way of ruling out propagandistic nonsense and limiting the debate to opinions that have some reasonable chance of being true.
Not that it will change your mind, but consider this
If you doubt Dr. Rizzi’s scholaship, here are some of his credentials:
His credentials have to do with science, not history. If I were to talk about physics, people would laugh at me.

That doesn’t mean that he can’t be right, of course. It just means that his impressive credentials as a scientist have little or nothing to do with his credibility when he makes claims about history.

Edwin
 
… But asking for a citation from a serious scholar (as I’ve defined the term) is a good way of ruling out propagandistic nonsense and limiting the debate to opinions that have some reasonable chance of being true.
Then why is there a “Newton’s Third Law of Social Studies”? I would agree with you if the “propagandistic nonsense” of, say, most conspiracy theorists were also ruled out, but no. They must be given more than a fair hearing just in case their crackpot ideas contain a grain of truth that must not be overlooked or rejected, lest the whole salvation of mankind be lost forever.
His credentials have to do with science, not history. If I were to talk about physics, people would laugh at me.
That doesn’t mean that he can’t be right, of course. It just means that his impressive credentials as a scientist have little or nothing to do with his credibility when he makes claims about history.
Funny no one else has to pass this test, not atheists, not wiccans, not devil worshipers, not victims of alien abduction, nor, least of all, the Muslim posters here. Only Christians and their apologists have to.

You have not read his book. I did. It is not about history or physics, but about the science of thinking. His thesis is we must know how to think before we can learn anything, hence the title The Science Before Science. I would think [but then again, maybe I don’t know how to think] he would have some authority in the business of thinking.
 
Then why is there a “Newton’s Third Law of Social Studies”?
Is there? Of course, this discussion will go nowhere, because I will ask you where a credentialed social scientist has written of such a law.

To someone who does not have the time or inclination to sort through scholarly discourse on a given topic, it does indeed appear as if “for every opinion there is an equal and opposite opinion.” But in fact all opinions are not equal–at least not in the scholarly fields I know. Some views, over time, reveal more and more flaws. Others, as they are challenged, become more and more established. It’s always a matter of probability and *never *of complete certainty, and again, this can be confusing to people who aren’t familiar with how historical scholarship works and who expect cut-and-dried answers or nothing.

At least in my own usage, when I ask for a “serious scholar” who has written on such a topic I’m not doing so because I think that such a scholar can provide an authoritative answer that will end debate. I’m doing so in order to limit debate to theories that have been somewhat tested against the evidence and that have already faced serious criticism by qualified people with differing views. (And also to make it more likely that the strongest possible version of a theory will be the one being discussed.) In the blogosphere anyone can make anything up and pass it off as expertise (people can even make up such things as “Newton’s Third Law of Social Studies”:p). The scholarly world is confusing, and diverse, and often silly, and sometimes corrupt. But it’s relatively more limited and *relatively *less likely to give birth to utter nonsense, and relatively more likely to lead to constructive discussions that have something to do with the truth.
I would agree with you if the “propagandistic nonsense” of, say, most conspiracy theorists were also ruled out, but no.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you accusing me (or someone else) of giving credence to conspiracy theorists, or are you seriously saying that we need to listen to conspiracy theorists? (I would actually agree that we should not rule out the faint possibility that a conspiracy theorist might have some grain of truth, but I don’t agree that they should be given “more than a fair hearing.”)
Funny no one else has to pass this test, not atheists, not wiccans, not devil worshipers, not victims of alien abduction, nor, least of all, the Muslim posters here. Only Christians and their apologists have to.
I don’t know what you are talking about. You certainly are not describing anything that I think, or anything that informs my conduct on this forum. I spend more time arguing with my fellow Christians, both because they are dominant on this forum and because it is important to refute silly things said by your own side before trying to tackle the silly things said by someone else. (When I tell Planten that he’s being unfair and illogical, I can hope that he will give some credibility to what I say because he knows that I frequently object to unfair and illogical things that other Christians say.) But I really am not quite sure what you are talking about or how it is relevant to anything.
You have not read his book. I did. It is not about history or physics, but about the science of thinking.
But you are quoting him with regard to the historical question of Islam’s relationship to science.

Why is it that you and other anti-Islamic polemicists have such a hard job finding professional scholars of Islam who actually agree with you? (I know some of the possible answers, but I won’t put answers in your mouth.)

Edwin
 
sedonaman, no one can become superior by stealing knowledge. Islam had much superiority over the church for about 1200 years. That could not be by stealing any knowledge. Our prophet had told the Muslims: “Take any wise word from where ever it comes. Take it as your own lost property.”

He also said “Achieve knowledge even if you have to go to China.”

You are accusing the Muslims of becoming superior by stealing knowledge. Think of the recent history. The American and British (Also Russions) captured the famous Germans specialising in rocket technology. That was after Germany was defeated in WWII in April 1945. The Germans had better knowledge by which they were throwing V2 rockets on London. (They had a V3 also ready which they could not use.).

Will you blame the superiority of the US due to stealing?? Will you say that Americans became superior because they stole knowledge from the Germans?? That is not right thinking. The Americans were already superior. That is why they defeated Hitler. I do not know what kind of mind you have got and how to convince you about contribution of different nations in advancement of science.

In order to be superior, a nation has to be equipped with better knowledge and higher morale. Without high moral, no one can be victorious.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top