The truth about the fall of the Roman Empire... Are we on the same road?

[YinYangMom]

Bobby A. Greene:

Similar to ancient Rome, America has become a polyglot nation of lawyers, engineers, and soldiers with a multitude of religions to choose.

And what I’m saying is that AMERICA started out as a polyglot nation of lawyers, engineers, and soldiers with a multitude of religions to choose. It’s the very foundation which makes this nation great.

I think the ‘bonding’ element for Americans in the beginning was the desire to be independent, free from British rule. Once they gained that, that defined being American.

When did that definition of being American change???

Perhaps when the Americans killed off the Native Americans if they didn’t ‘convert’ to Christianity???

Perhaps with the introduction of slavery, when the africans were brought here as assets/property, but not recognized as people???

What I’m suggesting is diversity caused a riff a long time ago in our history, so I doubt it is the cause of our declining state now.

 

[puzzleannie]

as a student of history, I felt I had something worthwhile to offer in response to the original question, but the tone of this discussion is so uncharitable (and betrays such an ignorance of history on the part of some persons) that I don’t think I care to participate.

for the original poster, if you would like some academic insight into the social aspects of homosexuality in ancient cultures, check out the tcrnews2.com website, along the left side where they have all the topics listed in abc order, and scroll down to the articles about homosexuality.

 

[mike182d]

Bobby A. Greene:

America was a British colony until 1789.

Technically, yes. In spirit…no.

 

[Chris_Jacobsen]

The Roman Empire is an example of an empire that lasted a very long time.

The Republic was established in 510 B.C. and Constantinople, the capital and last part of the Roman Empire, fell in 1453 A.D. The Roman Empire lasted about 2000 years.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

Chris Jacobsen:

The Roman Empire is an example of an empire that lasted a very long time.

Yes. Approximately 800 years.

The Republic was established in 510 B.C. and Constantinople, the capital and last part of the Roman Empire, fell in 1453 A.D. The Roman Empire lasted about 2000 years.

No. That is revisionist history. History accepts the date ~475 A. D. as to the fall of the Roman empire. Byzantium was not Rome.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

puzzleannie:

as a student of history, I felt I had something worthwhile to offer in response to the original question, but the tone of this discussion is so uncharitable (and betrays such an ignorance of history on the part of some persons) that I don’t think I care to participate.

There are a lot of very good students of history on this forum. Myself included, I earned a Masters in History from the University of Massachusetts in 1987. I always check my sources and review both my logic and historiographic technique.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

mike182d:

Technically, yes. In spirit…no.

As you probably know as well as I do, three quarters of the thirteen original colonies were loyal to England. It was only a quarter or less of the population that kept up any anti-British rhetoric culminating in the 1774 Boston Tea Party, then the British blockade, then armed resistance at Lexington green in 1776.

After ten years of war the colonies won their independence from the British only with the help of French intervention. In the final formation of America in 1789 thousands of loyalists had their property confiscated here in Boston and Massachusetts and were deported out of the colonies.

The revolutionary war was egged on by a minority of dissidents for vague purposes, since the majority of colonists were still loyal to their government, England.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

YinYangMom:

And what I’m saying is that AMERICA started out as a polyglot nation of lawyers, engineers, and soldiers with a multitude of religions to choose.

Actually, that is not true. In 1633 the slave ship DESIRE pulled into Boston harbor, and at that moment in New England there were three ethnic groups, for lack of a better expression: the white man, the black man, and the red man. The original thirteen colonies were far from being a polyglot nation of any type. Immigration was strictly enforced from 1630 to roughly 1800.

I think the ‘bonding’ element for Americans in the beginning was the desire to be independent, free from British rule. Once they gained that, that defined being American.

Again, it is a historical fact that three quarters of the original thirteen colonies were loyal to their government, England. It was only a minority of dissidents who egged on the American Revolution for vague and nebulous purposes.

When did that definition of being American change???

When humans (slaves) were defined as being only 3/5th of a man.

Perhaps when the Americans killed off the Native Americans if they didn’t ‘convert’ to Christianity???

Native Americans and just about anybody else who did not conform to the status quo. During a 1912 mining strike in Colorado, the ‘white’ national guard fired into the camps killing a twelve year old ‘white’ girl. Sacco & Venzetti, two Italian immigrants, where hanged in 1920 for anarchy and later found to be innocent. The list of U.S. government oppression against its own citizens is too long to list here, but defining what it is to be an American has grown to just as fuzzy as it was for a Roman fifteen hundred years ago.

Perhaps with the introduction of slavery, when the africans were brought here as assets/property, but not recognized as people???

They were defined as 3/5ths of a human being. But that is one start.

What I’m suggesting is diversity caused a riff a long time ago in our history, so I doubt it is the cause of our declining state now.

There are various levels of diversity, and with the open immigration policies of the 19th century, just as with ancient Rome, the flood of all different nationalities and customs into the U.S. from Europe, & Asia has dilluted the parent country. American as apple pie, or American as pizza pie, American as fried rice, or American as a Taco, which is it? America has lost its national identity, and America Incorporated is probably a bit more accurate.

 

[mike182d]

Bobby A. Greene:

The revolutionary war was egged on by a minority of dissidents for vague purposes, since the majority of colonists were still loyal to their government, England.

Absolutely. But I wouldn’t call it a British “civil war.”

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

mike182d:

Absolutely. But I wouldn’t call it a British “civil war.”

Actually, the American Revolutionary War or the American War of Independence has actually been referred to as a ‘civil’ war within the British empire.

In 1776 Britain had 55 colonies world wide and only 13 rebelled, the thirteen American colonies. Other colonies had rebelled, such as in Australia, but they were successfully repressed. Admiral of the Blue William Bligh (of Bounty fame) when he was Governor of Queensland Australia was involved in his third rebellion (or mutiny) under his command. (The second was at the Nore).

Again, if it weren’t for French intervention late in the American Revolutionary War the British would have suppressed that rebellion also.

Rome was plagued by civil wars and rebellions yet brutally suppressed each one.

 

[K777angel]

What I have read is that both major Empires - Roman AND Greek - followed the same pattern of decline and eventually collapsed not from without but from within.
The decline was gradual. The “one thing leads to another” scenario. (What our Catholic bishops warned us of in the 1930’s with the beginning of the acceptance of artificial birth control).
But one thing is true - that the FINAL event in the process of each of these declines and falls - was the acceptance of homosexual behavior as ‘normal.’

The United States has been in decline for several decades now.
We have been compared to both the Roman and Greek Empires both in our original strengths - and now our arrogance, pride and immorality (weaknesses).
And is it no coincidence that we are at the point most definitely of the “acceptance” as a society of homosexual activity as just an “alternative” and “normal.”
(As I type I am listening to the news on the radio talking of civil unions/marriage for gays in our state…that we are even discussing this is an obvious testament to depths of hell to which we have sunk as a nation)

God help us.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

K777angel:

What I have read is that both major Empires - Roman AND Greek - followed the same pattern of decline and eventually collapsed not from without but from within.

Actually, Rome invaded and conquered Greece circa 281 B.C. The very famous Greek General, Pyrrhus, defeated a Roman army by throwing everything he had at them, yet was unable to retain what he had won, hence the term ‘Pyrrhic Victory’ indicating an empty victory. Greece became a fiat state of Rome.

Yet Rome was never militarily conquered, Rome truly decayed from within.

 

[YinYangMom]

Bobby A. Greene:

Actually, that is not true. In 1633 the slave ship DESIRE pulled into Boston harbor, and at that moment in New England there were three ethnic groups, for lack of a better expression: the white man, the black man, and the red man. The original thirteen colonies were far from being a polyglot nation of any type. Immigration was strictly enforced from 1630 to roughly 1800.

Ok, I concede that point, thanks for the clarification…
So diversity for the land began with the pilgrims, since the red man was already here practicing his own cultural/spiritual beliefs…
and you’re saying the black man was introduced to the land before “America” existed…
So from 1630 to 1776…what ‘ethnic groups’ (for lack of a better word) were on the lands when the United States of America was born?
And what common thread would those groups have which made them "American as …? "

Did America ever really have a binding commonality which identified them as Americans?

If we can ‘no longer’ determine what being “American” is today, what was it before? and when was that?

I should note that I tend to lean toward the theory that contraception was the beginning of the end for this nation, by the way. Certainly not homosexuality, though, as the original poster suggests, and I’m still not convinced open immigration is to blame.

I’m also an optimist and tend to view all this ‘so-called beginning of the end’ stuff as labor pains…I believe the nation is still growing (we are still toddlers by other world culture standards) and that from this struggle and confusion will emerge a stronger, wiser, kinder nation. Perhaps we’re in our pre-teen stage…somewhere out there is adulthood - maturity will set in…unless we commit suicide first (as I suppose the doomsayers are suggesting is the path we’re on)…but even with real teens struggling with suicidal thoughts/tendencies - they can be saved and guided to a long secure life. In this nation’s case I say the Catholic Church and people like the ones here on these forums will get this nation through the tough times with a whole heck of a lot of patience and prayer.

 

[severinus]

Bobby A. Greene:

You didn’t. I just headed you off at the pass. Any discussions regarding Afro-Americans in this country seems to degenerate into the slavery which ended 140 years ago. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts ended slavery in 1755.

There exists institutionalized racism against caucasian ethnic groups, just look at the color-coding ‘white’ as one example. I am of Irish Catholic decent, and I’m not white! We’ve been screaming that in Boston for the past thirty years.
Jim Crow? That is a Southern phenomenon, it never existed in Boston. Boston never had segregation against the Afro-American in the past fifty years, but it did have segregation against Italians, Polish, Irish, Lithuanians, Estonians, Latvians, in the form of Forced Busing (which is still going on to this day).

There is still a lot of descrimination against caucasian ethnics. I just recently did not get hired at a major university just outside of Boston because of Affirmative Action, those racists called me white and wouldn’t hire me! Yet they hire yellow people?

I’ve heard of ‘collective guilt’ emanating out of the supreme court as well as punishing the innocent to atone for the guilty in the form of monetary compensation for slavery - not with my tax money, me and my own had nothing to do with slavery or Indian reservations or massacres in this free democratic country of ours.

If I can’t stop forced busing in my own neighborhood, what can I do against a racist federal government who calls me white, won’t hire me because of skin color, and has pushed forced busing down my throat for the past thirty years?

Just like ancient Rome, the American citizen has lost control of his own government.

1.Congratulations on your use of psychic ability to “head off” my discussion of slavery.
2. America is not just Boston, or just Massachusetts. The fact that certain things were not done in Boston does not negate the fact that these things were done elsewhere in America. Jim Crow was a reality in the southern United States.
3. I am sorry that you have had some rough times. It sure looks as if a lot of people seem to have a problem with the color of your skin. Are you certain that this is the real problem?
4. “yellow people” Yikes!
5. The Roman citizen lost control of his own government? When did the Roman citizen have control of his government?
6. The US has made astounding progress in extending the franchise from male property owners to any adult citizens who have not had their voting rights revoked. I am trying not to come to the conclusion that your real problem is that Americans of different colors and heritages have the right to vote, but that conclusion is becoming hard to avoid.
7. America is a nation of immigrants. Citizens descended from immigrants of the 1850s (like me) are no more special than those who were naturalized yesterday. Your posts contain hints of nativism, which, I need not remind you, was used to attack and disenfranchise Irish and other Catholics in the 19th century.

Your obsession with race is troubling to me, as is the ease with which you dismiss the problems of other ethnic groups in this country. Each of is his brother’s keeper. I will pray that your bitterness is replaced by love for all God’s children, no matter what their ancestry.

 

[K777angel]

Bobby A. Greene:

Yet Rome was never militarily conquered, Rome truly decayed from within.

As we are here in the United States.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

Did America ever really have a binding commonality which identified them as Americans?

Yes! Speaking the English language, a belief in the U.S. Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, a knowledge of U.S. history (not ‘world’ history), active participation in our civic, economic, and political institutions, the safeguarding and respect for each indiviual family unit and the civil rights of each American citizen.

But, as happened with ancient Rome, our politicians have become apathetic, uncontrolled immigration has muddied our cultural waters, and U.S. society has become socially and economically unstable. The Oklahoma City bombing was a tocsin that the system is not working. Not to mention all the black riots and police shootings we have in this country.

A non-homogeneous state does not last, they tend to fail, and as soon as ancient Rome became religiously, politically, and economically non-homogeneous, it simple faded in ~476 A.D.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

1.Congratulations on your use of psychic ability to “head off” my discussion of slavery.

Thank you!

1. America is not just Boston, or just Massachusetts. The fact that certain things were not done in Boston does not negate the fact that these things were done elsewhere in America. Jim Crow was a reality in the southern United States.

As far as the current United States of America is concerned - it all started in Boston.
And like some misguided politically correct revisionists, you don’t seem to understand that the South is not all of the U.S. either - Jim Crow had no bearing on either Pennsylvania or on Massachusetts. Jim Crow is irrelevant to New England or to the mid-Atlantic states.

1. I am sorry that you have had some rough times. It sure looks as if a lot of people seem to have a problem with the color of your skin. Are you certain that this is the real problem?

Actually it is a combination of several problems: my skin color, my poverty, my Roman Catholic religious heritage, and my ethnic background. :irish2:

1. “yellow people” Yikes!

“white people” Double Yikes! Color coding human beings is so very racist and we have an institutionalized racist federal government and court system that has labled me white and other humans black, so why aren’t Asians labled ‘yellow’?

1. The Roman citizen lost control of his own government? When did the Roman citizen have control of his government?

The Roman citizen actually voted for their local governor and representatives.

1. The US has made astounding progress in extending the franchise from male property owners to any adult citizens who have not had their voting rights revoked. I am trying not to come to the conclusion that your real problem is that Americans of different colors and heritages have the right to vote, but that conclusion is becoming hard to avoid.

Then your reading comprehensions skills are underdeveloped and you need to take a course in English and logic.

1. America is a nation of immigrants. Citizens descended from immigrants of the 1850s (like me) are no more special than those who were naturalized yesterday. Your posts contain hints of nativism, which, I need not remind you, was used to attack and disenfranchise Irish and other Catholics in the 19th century.

Boston is an immigrant city and is composed of several ethnic neighborhoods, with Boston’s Chinatown being the third largest Chinatown in the U.S. (the largest is in New York). Boston has a sizable Italian neighborhood, and has the largest Lithuanian neighborhood in the country and third largest Polish neighborhood, plus those of my decent :irish1: the Irish Catholic. I grew up surrounded by non-English speaking immigrants all my life, so you really there is really very little you can tell me about the immigrant life in America, especially when I concentrated in demographics in college.
They also had a nativist movement in ancient Rome as a result of all the unchecked immigration, escpecially the barbarian invasions.

Your obsession with race is troubling to me, as is the ease with which you dismiss the problems of other ethnic groups in this country. Each of is his brother’s keeper. I will pray that your bitterness is replaced by love for all God’s children, no matter what their ancestry.

And your fixation on race is disturbing to me since I have constantly mentioned three elements to the fall of Rome: immigration, apathy, and social turmoil.

 

[YinYangMom]

Bobby A. Greene:

Yes! Speaking the English language, a belief in the U.S. Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, a knowledge of U.S. history (not ‘world’ history), active participation in our civic, economic, and political institutions, the safeguarding and respect for each indiviual family unit and the civil rights of each American citizen.
.

And when did this occur???

When - did we ever all speak the ‘English’ language???

When - did we all believe in the U.S. Constitution or the Declaration of Independence, considering it was near and dear only to certian people at the time (excluding native americans and african americans, and whatever other culture was here that didn’t fall under the definition of 'U.S. Citizen" as a result of said documents)

When - did we **all **know “American History”??? And whose version would you consider valid? The one which depicts the anglos as civilized God-fearing saviors over the heathen savages who were already here? Or the one which shows them as the artisans of genocide they really were?

When - did we all participate actively in our our civic, economic, and political institutions?? (women and blacks were excluded for years)

When - did we ever safeguard and respect each and every indiviual family unit??? (racial discrimination comes to mind, as in housing discrimination)

When - have the civil rights of** each** American citizen ever been safeguarded??? (KuKluxClan comes to mind)

Seems to me we’re still struggling with each of those issues you seem to believe were resolved at one point in time from which we have begun to decline. So when did this Eutopian version of the United States of America exist???

 

[iserve]

YYM- Never mind his Utopia, where did you get yours? If you think that natives here were totally peace loving and had absolutely no history of tribal wars or land-taking by dominant groups, you are sorely mistaken. Only a lack in abundance of written history allows people to think along those lines, but indigenous people did in fact fight with, kill, and overtake one another. And in Africa, it was black men from some tribes that captured and sold other black men to slave traders. The fact is, Europeans came to this country and then set themselves apart in the establishment of a government that is about as fair to the individual in society as any government ever has in the history of the world. Honestly, how can you be so ridiculously biased against the people who laid their lives on the line for the principles we live by in the Constitution because of the whining of a few disgruntled revisionists?

 

[YinYangMom]

iserve:

YYM- Never mind his Utopia, where did you get yours? If you think that natives here were totally peace loving and had absolutely no history of tribal wars or land-taking by dominant groups, you are sorely mistaken. Only a lack in abundance of written history allows people to think along those lines, but indigenous people did in fact fight with, kill, and overtake one another. And in Africa, it was black men from some tribes that captured and sold other black men to slave traders. The fact is, Europeans came to this country and then set themselves apart in the establishment of a government that is about as fair to the individual in society as any government ever has in the history of the world. Honestly, how can you be so ridiculously biased against the people who laid their lives on the line for the principles we live by in the Constitution because of the whining of a few disgruntled revisionists?

We were discussing what made AMERICANs united.

I never claimed peoples were peace loving, ever…because, as you’ve pointed out, since the Fall, there have been wars among different people/cultures.

One poster suggests homosexuality is causing the fall of this great nation as it did Rome.

Another poster suggests open immigration policies have led to the decline of this great country, that there was a time when being “American” meant something…and that we have lost that somewhere along the line.

He said it was a time when we spoke the English language, when we had a shared belief in the U.S. Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, when we had a knowledge of U.S. history, when we were active participants in our civic, economic, and political institutions, the safeguarding and respect for each indiviual family unit and the civil rights of each American citizen…

I was stating I don’t recognize a time in U.S. history when that has ever been the case.

Where do you get from that, that I believe natives here (or anywhere, for that matter) were totally peace loving and had absolutely no history of tribal wars or land-taking by dominant groups???