M
- Status
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Tom:
Sorry that i was not clear in what i wrote. By stating that God loves His children “not because they do anything” i was trying to show that His love was not based on what they said or did. I’d say God loves even those who end up in hell; they just would never accept His love. They loved their sin more than Him.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I agree that every true follower of Jesus will say and do what is right and pleasing to Him more and more. That is, i’m not considering whether good works are a necessary attribute of a Christian. Instead, i’m considering the role the good things i say and do play in the theater of my life.
The most important question i’m trying to answer in this discussion thread is this: Are the good things i say and do a cause of eternal life or merely an effect of eternal life? What do you think, Tom?
T
Tom
Guest
Not repenting of course.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Michael:
What would you say to a person who read only the first two chapters of a 16 chapter book and told you he understood the entire book?
T
Tom
Guest
Definitely NOT “merely” an affect. Why can’t they be both, a cause, AND (not or) an affect? God, teaches us to “do” not just say, that’s explicit in Scripture. If we love Him we follow His commands. If I refuse to “do” I forfeit His gift. If I “do” I’m not earning but accepting His gift. Do I “do” to earn a gift? Absolutely not, I “do” because I love Him. What reason would I not “do”? Stubbornness perhaps, I want my salvation on my terms. The Catholic Church teaches X, therefore we must show X is incorrect and instead Y is correct. My salvation is not a one dimensional equation. There are many, many factors involved, first and foremost is my love of God. It is this love that draws me to Him and His Church. Saying I love Him but not doing anything about it shows a shallow “love” if love at all. Sure I’ll respect you in the morning. Saying it doesn’t make it fact. I’m sure there are Catholics out there who act out of rote memorization. That isn’t a bad place to start; in fact it is the first step of learning.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Tom:Socrates4Jesus:
Definitely NOT “merely” an affect. Why can’t they be both, a cause, AND (not or) an affect? God, teaches us to “do” not just say, that’s explicit in Scripture. If we love Him we follow His commands. If I refuse to “do” I forfeit His gift. If I “do” I’m not earning but accepting His gift. Do I “do” to earn a gift? Absolutely not, I “do” because I love Him. What reason would I not “do”? Stubbornness perhaps, I want my salvation on my terms. The Catholic Church teaches X, therefore we must show X is incorrect and instead Y is correct. My salvation is not a one dimensional equation. There are many, many factors involved, first and foremost is my love of God. It is this love that draws me to Him and His Church. Saying I love Him but not doing anything about it shows a shallow “love” if love at all. Sure I’ll respect you in the morning. Saying it doesn’t make it fact. I’m sure there are Catholics out there who act out of rote memorization. That isn’t a bad place to start; in fact it is the first step of learning.
My thought is that this is impossible for the good things we do to be both a cause and an effect of eternal life, because a cause can never be the same as the thing it causes.
Take repentance, for example. The good things you do, such as going to confession and praying afterword, are not repentance. Repentance is the cause; confession and prayer for forgiveness are the consequences. Repentance (or a desire and decision to change) is a reason for the results, which are confession, prayer, and a change of behavior, among other effects. This might be why St. John the Baptist warned the hypocrites to
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.(Matthew 3:8)Repentance is a cause, fruit in keeping with repentance is an effect. The fruit in keeping with repentance (e.g., the change in behavior) is not repentance, it is an effect of repentance.
However, perhaps i am missing something. Please, if you can, give me one example (any example) where the cause of something is the same as the thing it causes.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Michael:
How does (R4) not apply to Galatians 6?
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
(Galatians 6:7-9)
(R4) God gives eternal life to His children as a gift because He loves them, not because they do anything to earn eternal life as a reward; and God’s children who are loved by Him return His love by continuing to do good works that please Him.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Tom:
Yes, thank you for pointing out my fuzzy thinking. I see now that it is possible that good works can be both a cause and a result of eternal life.
An example of something being both a cause and an effect is repentance. I might repent of my lack of prayer. As i pray, God might move me to repent further still of my lack of prayer, the result being that i pray more. In this case, repentance causes good works, which causes further repentance, which causes further good works, and so this might go on in a continuous cycle of cause and effect (or even grace upon grace). This does not prove that good works does in fact cause God to give us the gift of eternal life; it does, however, at least raise the possibility. Thank you for pointing this out.
Tom, do you know of any passages of Scripture that show good works to be a cause of eternal life? If you do, please point them out so that we can look at them together. If necessary, you can use this Web site to search for them:
biblegateway.com/
T
Tom
Guest
For arguments sake, let me take “good works”. I understand my Lord and savior tells me to do “good works”. To me it is explicit in Scripture, it is also written in my heart. I “know” it is true. You convince my logic that not only do my good works do nothing to effect my salvation, but in fact prove I am not trusting God. I’m in a quandary, I believe Jesus tells me to do “good works” but, am I not trusting God? So we have two possibilities:
- I continue to do “good works” trusting my conviction of what Jesus teaches. I’m following my Gods’ commandment. I have no doubt that in following His teaching and doing “good works” I will in fact be saved. It is a cause of my salvation, following Gods command. As a result of accepting the grace which God freely gives me I am drawn closer to Him, I want to do more “good works”, why? I know I’m already saved in doing His will. I don’t desire to do more because I need to be saved, I want to do more because I am saved (or well on the way… LOL). Here it is a result. So doing “good works” is both a cause of my salvation and an affect of my salvation.
- I decide you’re right. I follow your teaching, ignore the poor, ignore the homeless hungry man, after all if I do feed him, I’m proving I am trusting in my works and not in God. I stubbornly refuse to do “good works” because I don’t want to seem (to you) to be earning my way into heaven. So, am I following the teaching of Jesus by ignoring to do “good works”? Is this the message you get from Jesus? As a result of not doing good works, I’m refusing the graces which God is freely offering. Now, I not only don’t want to do “good works”, I want to convince others their “good works” are of no avail. Am I on my way to salvation? I have not changed my faith in God, I have not changed my love for God. I’ve just stopped doing those “good works”. Realistically, I am not on my way to salvation, I am rejecting it. I have refused to do the will of God, therefore I will not be saved. By not doing the “good works” out of love and obedience, I have rejected the graces and salvation freely offered by God. This causes my loss. As a result of not doing these “good works”, and losing the graces of God, I want to lead others into the path of destruction, this is an affect of not accepting the graces God freely offers. So not doing “good works” is both a cause of my loss of salvation and an affect of my loss of salvation.
Does this mean I “earn” my salvation? No. It means I accept my salvation.
T
Tom
Guest
Soc the question is very basic,
- You think Jesus is telling you to do nothing but have faith, in which case doing “good works” proves you don’t trust God or:
- You believe God calls you to do “good works” and the more good works you do the more grace you’re accepting, the more graces you accept the closer to God you become.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
I’m not sure what to believe, but i’m not going to give up searching for certainty! I hope someone here can answer my questions and help me figure this out.
There are two statements in St. Paul’s letter to the Romans that appear to contradict each other. The first is this:
(1) God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. (Romans 2:7-8)biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&version=31The second is this:
(2) Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. (Romans 4:4-5)biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&version=31A thoughtful Catholic at this forum suggested that Romans 2:7-8 means this:
(1a) God gives eternal life only to specific people because they do the good works He requires.Well-meaning Protestants, on the other hand, tell me that Romans 4:4-5 means this:
(2a) God gives eternal life only to specific people because they trust Him, but not because they trust in the good works He wants them to do. I imagine atheists will mock me and say, “You idiot! Are you still blind to the fact that your Book is full of contradictions? And you call yourself a Philosopher!”
There is a myth about the Roman nation starting from two twins Romulus and Remus who survived by suckling a wolf in the wild.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus
I feel as though (1a) is Romulus and (2a) is Remus and St. Paul is their father; and i do not know whether these two truths have the same mother of truth, or whether one is the bastard son of a lady of lies. Of course, if one is false, then i don’t know how i can trust Paul, or even put the St. next to his name.
There must be some way to show that both (1) and (2) are the offspring of the same truth. Please, will someone help me out here?
Why does certainty matter so much ?
People - Christians especially
, or so it seems - are always picking holes in each other’s certainties. Bothering about certainty only leads to discontent & defensiveness - in this world, AFAICS, we have either various degrees of probability - or faith. But not complete, invulnerable, intellectual certainty free of all possibilty of mistake: to have that, seems to require omniscience.Besides, “knowledge puffs up - love builds up”: as St.Paul pointed out. Knowledge matters far less than love - but it’s much easier to know than to love, so love is easy to ignore.
Don’t torment yourself with looking for what is not on offer Love is worth a thousand dogmas, a thousand certainties, a thousand truths.Besides, many problems sort themselves out. A solution may come to you when you aren’t thinking about the problem
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Tom:
I think that if you were to take the time to read the last few pages of this discussion thread, you would see that i do not believe (1).
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2290021#post2290021
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
From what i understand, Geer, truth and love go together.Why does certainty matter so much ?
People - Christians especially
Besides, “knowledge puffs up - love builds up”: as St.Paul pointed out. Knowledge matters far less than love - but it’s much easier to know than to love, so love is easy to ignore.
Besides, many problems sort themselves out. A solution may come to you when you aren’t thinking about the problem
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
(1 Corinthians 13:6)
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
(2 Thessalonians 2:10)
Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
(Ephesians 5:14)
… because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints— the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel …
(Colossians 1:4-5)
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.
(1 Peter 1:22)
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
(1 John 3:18)
Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love.
(2 John 1:3)
Can one please God unless he has a good measure of both truth and love?
- Status