The Truth: We Are Saved By Faith Alone

[ALLFORHIM]

You need to re-read the whole verse.

“For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them” Gal 2:10

Paul is not necessarily saying that Faith alone is it. You have only concentrated on the lines that serve your purpose while casting away verse 10.

Faith has enabled you to recieve God’s grace. But it doesn’t end there.

Paul is saying that once you recieve the Grace as a result of your faith act, you are now an instument to manifest works. You are now a part of the Body of Christ and are under an obligation tp manifest good works.

Again, your Faith has opened the door. But you must and are commanded to act on that gift of Grace.

I totally agree with you. The difference is that the initial justification we receive when we believe is our seal of salvation. The we are absolutely to be obediant to do the works God made for us in advance to do.

I believe the core difference here is the CC defines justification differently then it is defined biblically.

Honestly, I think what is happening with this particular subject is that there is a supernatural spiritual element to salvation that ultimately we humans cannot comprehend. Then what happens is that we try so hard to explain away biblical truths that it becomes confusing and we end up talking in circles:shrug:

 

[Ahimsa]

I totally agree with you. The difference is that the initial justification we receive when we believe is our seal of salvation.

So, you believe that the initial justification “seals” salvation, in the sense of guaranteeing salvation?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I would like to add something

I believe many times we are just talking past each other because we have slightly different definitions.

I believe that if someone has accepted the Lord, loves the Lord and follows the Lord, they are saved whether they believe it or not:thumbsup: If you believe you have to somehow cooperate in your salvation then so be it.

If someone else knows they are saved and then does the good works given to them to do by God then so be it.

Either way they will see heaven. AMEN!!! Maybe Im wrong and Im a polyana(SP?) but I prefer to rely on God’s mercy rather then our legalism and judgements on one another.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

So, you believe that the initial justification “seals” salvation, in the sense of guaranteeing salvation?

Absolutely!! AMEN!! GraceSeeker gives a great explanation of wht justification meant in Greek and how it was used in the bible post #235

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Absolutely!! AMEN!! GraceSeeker gives a great explanation of wht justification meant in Greek and how it was used in the bible post #235

And Bishopite has a great response regarding the Catholic view of justification (post #5) to that from the following thread and how it was used in the Bible:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=127968

Bishopite:

Abraham being justified in Gen 15:6 is the classic Protestant argument of how they say justification in Scripture is punctiliar (that it happens ONLY once for all) and not a process. However, Scripture says something entirely different from the Protestant position. Abraham, according to this article by Jason Dulle is justified once (and for all) in Gen 15:6 because this is the moment he believed in God and became justified. The problem with Dulles position starts in Hebrews 11:8 where it says… “By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, not knowing where he was to go.”

Hebrews 11:8 is quoting Gen 12 where God first commanded Abraham to leave Haran and go to Canan. Notice the obvious, that Gen 12 is before Gen 15 for they are in chronological order and since that is the case, the next question is…what kind of faith does Abraham have in Gen 12 that Hebrews 11:8 is speaking about?
Was it a true saving faith? Well it appears so since he obeyed God by faith and works and did what God wanted him to do.

Again, is the faith Abraham had in Gen 12 not a true believing faith? The answer is YES.
Abraham believed and obeyed by his actions (works) in Gen 12 and was justified at that time and then in Gen 15 he also believed and continued to be righteous/justified before God and in Gen 17 where Abram became Abraham he again obeyed God (as he did in Gen 12,15) and thus continue to be justified by his obedience (works) that God gave him to do.

So the whole point here in Hebrew 11:8 and Gen 12-17 is that Abraham is a clear example of how salvation (justification) is a process by which we have faith in God and obey Him by doing good works. This fits precisely with James 2 which says Abraham was justified by his faith and works.

In summary of the Catholic position on works:

Bishopite:

Note when Catholicism uses the word “works” in conjunction with faith it does NOT mean personal works, but the works done under Gods grace through love as Gal 5:6 says… “For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.”

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Absolutely!! AMEN!! GraceSeeker gives a great explanation of wht justification meant in Greek and how it was used in the bible post #235

Regarding the actual Greek Word sited in post #235:

“McGrath’s linguistic analysis and conclusion appear to read into history what his theology dictates. Despite the anomalies that always occur in translating a word from one language to another, it is a matter of certain faith that inspired Scripture, which translates Hebrew text into Greek text, cannot err, and does not envision the problem McGrath proposes. First, without reservation, the New Testament authors use the *dikaioo *cognates to translate the Hebrew Septuagint cognates. These translations occur in many non-justifyication contexts (i.e., “non-imputation” contexts). For example, in 2 Cor. 9:9 Paul cites a quotation from Psalm 112:9 and uses the Greek dikaiosome to translate the Hebrew faminine noun tsadaqah—(hich the LXX also translates as dikaiosune). The context of 2 Cor 9:9-10 concerns liberal giving, both of God and men, to those in need. Thus, contrary to McGrath’s thesis, dikaiosune is understood as that which is inherent within both God and man due to the good they have done. Similarly, Hebrews 1:9 uses dikaiosune to translate the Hebrew male noun tsadaq in Psalm 45:7 (of which the LXX uses dikaiosune) and speaks of the inherent righteousness of Christ. (The relevance of the LXX may be even more significant here since Hebrews 1:6 is quoted by Paul directly from the LXX). In addition, 1 Peter 3:12 regards righteous individuals as inherently righteous, for it is they who “turn from evil and do good” and “seek peace and pursue it.” Similarly, Hebrews 11:7 uses dikaiosune to describe the righteousness of Noah, translating the Hebrew adjective tsadeek in Genesis 7:1 which refers to God seeing Noah as inherently righteous for his goodness in the midst of the wicked people of his day.
We should also add that Scripture does not support McGrath’s assessment of the Greek word axioo to refer only to the estimation of an individual rather than his merit (which he distiguishes from the Latin notion of merit that gives the individual the “right” of the third party estimation, i.e., because he is deserving of it). The New Testament uses axioo not only in considering someone worthy but also in recognizing someone worthy because he is actually worthy. For example, Hebrews 3:3 uses axioo in reference to Christ’s worthiness: “Jesus has been counted worthy of greater honor than Moses…” This is a common usage of axioo and its cognates in the New Testament (cf., 1 Thes 1:11; 1 Tim 5:17; Col 1:10; et al).” (Not by faith alone, Queenship publishing,Sungenis page 61,1996)

Source (post #4):
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=127968

 

[LittleDeb]

Hi,
I didnt realize the CC taught that there are two different types of work. Could you show me where this difference is pointed out in scripture.

Thanks

Yes, Scripture often refers to “works of the law.” This Scripture in Ephesians is addressing it. That is why verse #9 says works are bad only to go on in verse 10 to say we are created for “good works.” The one at the end of post 244 is addressing it, Galatians. Basically anytime you see the word ‘circumcision’ in NT Scripture there is probably a discussion of ‘works of the law’ going on. All of the Scriptures that say we are saved by “faith apart from works” are addressing ‘works of the law,’ many using that exact term. (Romans comes to mind, but I would have to look it up to be sure.) To a Jewish audience the term “works” was a personal work that they themselves had done. (Circumcision being one very frequently addressed.) The term “good works” addresses those things created by God that we are to do. Love is a work. It is an action. I am pretty sure you agree with that. Love is NOT a ‘work of the law.’ A ‘work of the law’ is of the old Mosaic law. Jesus came not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law. He fulfilled the necessity of circumcision and replaced it with baptism. After Jesus’ death circumcision does nothing. This is addressed by the apostles in Acts.

That is what caused the not so polite discourse between Brandenrush and me. I said he was not quoting in context and was using the two terms interchangeably because he kept saying “good works” were rejected as a factor in salvation when it was ‘works of the law’ which were being rejected. He went on to say that he did know the difference between the two terms and then quoted another out of context section that is addressing and rejecting ‘works of the law’ using the exact wording. That is why I gave up on him.

St. Paul, as a Jew, was often addressing other Jews who were still insistent that ‘works of the law’ needed to be done. The “First Council” in Acts addresses it head-on. The Gentiles were NOT required to be circumcised to be Christian (called “The Way” in many places.) ‘Works of the law’ were officially done. The Apostles set out to bring everyone to The Way, circumcised and non.

I hope that helps.

 

[bobzills]

I think that ordinarily, we are saved by faith and good works.

 

[caterpiller]

“Not by reason of good works that we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us” (Titus 3:5).

Then where do works come in? James answers that question. “Show me thy faith without works, and I from my works will show thee my faith,” he says (James 2:18). Works follow faith. Faith produces works. If you are saved your life will show it. You work for God because you ARE saved, not in order to be saved. “Faith without works” is dead.

I know that God gave us our own free will so we could surrender it to Him and accept His. By faith we let Him lead our lives, giving us every opportunity to do kindness to everyone we encounter during the day. So the only work needed is to show the love he has given to us freely, and so be the overflowing vessel of His grace.

 

[SFLCatholic]

I totally agree with you. The difference is that the initial justification we receive when we believe is our seal of salvation. The we are absolutely to be obediant to do the works God made for us in advance to do.

Thank you

I believe the core difference here is the CC defines justification differently then it is defined biblically.

Explain the difference.

Honestly, I think what is happening with this particular subject is that there is a supernatural spiritual element to salvation that ultimately we humans cannot comprehend. Then what happens is that we try so hard to explain away biblical truths that it becomes confusing and we end up talking in circles:shrug:

And this is exactly why Jesus founded His church upon Peter and gave us Apostolic succession. To keep the Teachings and Traditions pure so they could not be explained away.

When are you going to become Catholic?

 

[passioncrosslov]

OK, can’t help but to butt in, excuse me folks!

OK, just focus on the New Testament alone for a moment. I would like to ask our Prostestant friend: At the Last Supper, what did Christ mean when he took the bread and said, “Take this, all of you, and eat it. This is my body, which shall be given up for you”, and held up the cup of wine and said, “Take this all of you and drink from it. This is the cup of my blood, the new and everlasting covenant, which shall be shed for you and for many. Do this, in memory of me.” If one claims to follow Scripture’s teaching so strictly, and not admit that this pertains to Our Eucharistic Lord, then I would consider that one a hyprocrite, for he/she proclaims God by his mouth but her/his heart is far from Him.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

And Bishopite has a great response regarding the Catholic view of justification (post #5) to that from the following thread and how it was used in the Bible:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=127968

In summary of the Catholic position on works:

Originally Posted by Bishopite
Note when Catholicism uses the word “works” in conjunction with faith it does NOT mean personal works, but the works done under Gods grace through love as Gal 5:6 says… “For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.”

And when we speak of faith working, then I have no argument. Just as I have no problem with your reference to Abraham having faith in Genesis 12. Note that in Genesis 12 Abraham has faith and then begins his journey. I know that there is no specific mention of faith in Genesis 12, but his actions show that he trusted in God. Trust is a synonym of belief and faith. If Abraham had not trusted God, he never would have started on the journey. It is faith, which is then put to into action. This is what faith is, and this is what I understand James to be all about. If we only SAY we have faith, but it can’t be seen, then it is at best dead faith, and dead faith doesn’t save, only living faith, and living faith is always active, hence is always going to be evidenced by work. Of course it begins with faith, but if never gets active it is unworthy or truly being termed faith, it is the useless faith of those who in the last day will call out to Jesus, “Lord, Lord” and to whom he will respond, “Go away. I never knew you.”

But that is still a long way from those who say that works produces faith. I don’t buy that, and there are some here trying to sell it.

 

[Maui71]

James 2:14-26 Faith and Works

14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

One must look at the context of the scriptures for if one book or letter seems in conflict with another then the interpretation is likely wrong; because the scriptures are not wrong. Further, the earliest Christians those that were ordained by the Apostles themselves, what did they teach before the scriptures were compiled. See, the bible as you know it was not agreed upon till 393 A.D. at the Synod of Hippo. From Christ till the reformation no one believed in sola scriptura - faith alone. That is a Lutheran doctrine that came about 1,500 years later.

Ok better find me within those 1,500 at least 10 bishops that wrote that one is saved through faith alone. As a matter of fact find for me in the bible were it explicitly says you are saved through “faith alone” not a construction of the paragraph or an implied statement because I found for you in line 20 where it tells you faith alone is useless and 24 is the converts to what I am asking you.

The bible must be harmonious like instruments in an orchestra. They are not a sole artist ripping with a lead guitar while the rest of the band strums. No, it is a choir singing in unison. One section must completely support the next. That belief of sola scriptura is in complete conflict with many passages and particularly this passage, no this paragraph in the bible.

Why don’t you do some research in early Christianity and tell me what the fathers of the Church did or believed when it comes to salvation? See the Church could not have been wrong for 1,500 years. Because then the Apostles successor and everyone till Luther was wrong? Christ founded something that hell defeated for 1,500 years? That does not seem logical or holy.

I eagerly await the results of your research.

God bless,

Maui

 

[Maui71]

Ups,

“That belief of sola scriptura is in complete conflict with many passages and particularly this passage, no this paragraph in the bible.” Should be Sola Fidei - Faith Alone… It’s late.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

As mine is the immediate post before yours, and you neither quoted another nor address your post to anyone else, I take it that you are then addressing me.

As a matter of fact find for me in the bible were it explicitly says you are saved through “faith alone” not a construction of the paragraph or an implied statement

As soon as you find for me where it explicity talks about the Trinity, not a construction of the paragraph or an implied statement.

How ridiculous of a request is that? Of course one must use one’s reason and logic when reading the scriptures. Even what you propose as your “proof” – “I found for you in line 20 where it tells you faith alone is useless” is something you have constructed from what you believe is implied there. Notice that in reality verse 20 doesn’t make any declaratory statements at all. Rather it is a question.

You know, if you read my post, you will see that I don’t separate faith and works, I hold them in harmony. But when you begin as you did, suggesting that only when words are in some sort of exact order will you except them with regard to faith, but yet you accept other teachings that are reached by implication and inference, then you are not to be taken seriously.

Let me make it clear, we are NOT saved by faith alone. Rather we are saved by GRACE through faith.

The bible must be harmonious like instruments in an orchestra. They are not a sole artist ripping with a lead guitar while the rest of the band strums. No, it is a choir singing in unison. One section must completely support the next.

I completely agree, so please quit playing James 2:24 out of context. Begin back in verse 22, “You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.” Faith and actions need to work together. One does not stand alone apart from the other. So, it is not faith alone, and it certainly is not works alone.

And why do you bring up topics like “sola scriptura” that are not even part of the discussion? Doing so serves no purpose except to obfuscate the thoughtful discussion of others preceeding your comments.

Why don’t you do some research in early Christianity and tell me what the fathers of the Church did or believed when it comes to salvation?

And this is just arrogance. I don’t even believe you really want to be told what the fathers of the Church did or didn’t believe. I think you only want to hear the party line. The sad thing, that you don’t realize, is that the party line is not as old as you think it is. If you had actually read the early church fathers you would realize that, but if you think otherwise it must be that again you are only reading not for insight into what the church fathers actually thought, but for those salient comments that happen to be supportive of your already predetermined view of what you wanted to see. But that is for another thread.

See the Church could not have been wrong for 1,500 years. Because then the Apostles successor and everyone till Luther was wrong? Christ founded something that hell defeated for 1,500 years? That does not seem logical or holy.

While I don’t think it is true that the Church was wrong or that hell had defeated it for 1500 years, there is nothing either illogical or unholy about that possibiltiy. When Christ says that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, you infer that it means that never does hell or unrighteousness have the upper hand. But that is only an inference. It isn’t what the text says. The text says that the gates of hell will not prevail, will not overcome – in other words triumph. Well, we know that Christ does indeed Triumph in the end. But we also know that there are low days for God’s people before then. The Gates of Hell don’t prevail, because in the end Christ wins. But 1500 years of being wrong, that doesn’t make this verse untrue. It is perfectly logical that the Church could be wrong for not just 1500 years but even 15,000 years; still, in the end, it will prevail because Christ is the ultimate victor. And that is all that that verse actually makes as a claim. So, please don’t go telling me to go looking for explicity statements when you don’t even know how to read what is there.

Logic. You don’t know the meaning of the word.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

And when we speak of faith working, then I have no argument. Just as I have no problem with your reference to Abraham having faith in Genesis 12. Note that in Genesis 12 Abraham has faith and then begins his journey. I know that there is no specific mention of faith in Genesis 12, but his actions show that he trusted in God. Trust is a synonym of belief and faith. If Abraham had not trusted God, he never would have started on the journey. It is faith, which is then put to into action. This is what faith is, and this is what I understand James to be all about. If we only SAY we have faith, but it can’t be seen, then it is at best dead faith, and dead faith doesn’t save, only living faith, and living faith is always active, hence is always going to be evidenced by work. Of course it begins with faith, but if never gets active it is unworthy or truly being termed faith, it is the useless faith of those who in the last day will call out to Jesus, “Lord, Lord” and to whom he will respond, “Go away. I never knew you.”

But that is still a long way from those who say that works produces faith. I don’t buy that, and there are some here trying to sell it.

I personally would not say that works produce faith and I don’t believe that is a teaching of the Catholic Church. Heb 11:6 tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God, so how could anyone really claim that a “work” was good if it was done before one had faith? If someone has found that in the Catechism, I would be interested in reading about it.

Both faith and works (of love and hope) are initiated by God’s Grace. From the very moment when we accept God’s gift of faith, it must be a living faith (as you describe above). Catholics believe that as we live our faith, we receive more Grace–our faith grows stronger, and we are compelled to do more works for the glory of God. It all hinges on God’s generosity–as He gives more and more Grace, we have more faith/works. I’m sure most of us have witnessed this in one way or another. Some people call it their faith journey, others call it the path to holiness. . Of course, as you know, we have to accept and act upon His Grace. However, the Catholic position is that faith and works (of love and hope) go together–faith working in love, pure and simple. Faith without works is dead and works without faith are just “works of law”.

I’m glad to see you do not agree with the faith alone doctrine. Like I have said before, the slogan “we are saved by faith alone” really bothers me on a number of levels. First of all, scripture does not say that (as you point out, it says we are saved by Grace through faith) and second of all, it seems to glorify one’s faith rather than glorify the free gift of God that allows us to have faith. But AllforHim touched on an important point, I really feel that we may have different definitions for the word “faith”. What protestants call “faith”* includes *“works in love”. At least that is how it seems to me. I like your most recent statement about holding faith and works in harmony. How…err… Catholic of you. Just kidding.

PS. I, personally, have never liked the expression “faith plus works” and much prefer “fatih working in love and hope” or “living faith”.

 

[mikeledes]

If you look at Ephesians 2:8-10—it says we are saved through faith and it is a GIFT and not of yourself–so it cannot be a work. Otherwise we can boast and really the only thing we should boast about is Christ’s work on the cross. make sense

There is a scripture that refers to only boasting in Christ. It is in one of Paul’s letters. Ill see if I can find it.

Good works pleasing before God can only be performed if one has been united to Christ through grace:

John 15:4-5

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

We are made righteous by grace in order to live righteously. Being justfied does not free us from obligations that affect our eternal destiny:

Romans 8:12-12

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-8

**7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Good works pleasing before God can only be performed if one has been united to Christ through grace:

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Regarding the actual Greek Word sited in post #235:

Source (post #4):
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=127968

Thanks for the info.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Yes, Scripture often refers to “works of the law.” This Scripture in Ephesians is addressing it. That is why verse #9 says works are bad only to go on in verse 10 to say we are created for “good works.” The one at the end of post 244 is addressing it, Galatians. Basically anytime you see the word ‘circumcision’ in NT Scripture there is probably a discussion of ‘works of the law’ going on. All of the Scriptures that say we are saved by “faith apart from works” are addressing ‘works of the law,’ many using that exact term. (Romans comes to mind, but I would have to look it up to be sure.) To a Jewish audience the term “works” was a personal work that they themselves had done. (Circumcision being one very frequently addressed.) The term “good works” addresses those things created by God that we are to do. Love is a work. It is an action. I am pretty sure you agree with that. Love is NOT a ‘work of the law.’ A ‘work of the law’ is of the old Mosaic law. Jesus came not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law. He fulfilled the necessity of circumcision and replaced it with baptism. After Jesus’ death circumcision does nothing. This is addressed by the apostles in Acts.

That is what caused the not so polite discourse between Brandenrush and me. I said he was not quoting in context and was using the two terms interchangeably because he kept saying “good works” were rejected as a factor in salvation when it was ‘works of the law’ which were being rejected. He went on to say that he did know the difference between the two terms and then quoted another out of context section that is addressing and rejecting ‘works of the law’ using the exact wording. That is why I gave up on him.

St. Paul, as a Jew, was often addressing other Jews who were still insistent that ‘works of the law’ needed to be done. The “First Council” in Acts addresses it head-on. The Gentiles were NOT required to be circumcised to be Christian (called “The Way” in many places.) ‘Works of the law’ were officially done. The Apostles set out to bring everyone to The Way, circumcised and non.

I hope that helps.

Thanks Deb