The Truth: We Are Saved By Faith Alone

[Jaypeeto4]

I put no words in anyone’s mouth…why such a hostile response to my post???
And no Catholic believes he “earns” his salvation by the number of Masses he attends!!!
What we do believe is that to understand WHAT the Sunday Mass IS, and the obligation to assist in the Church’s public worship, then for a Catholic to deliberately decide not to attend the Sunday Mass is a LAWLESS, sinful act by which he or she shows a callous disregard for the salvation given us in Christ and in fact a rejection of it and belittling of it.
That’s quite different from “earning” our salvation by attending Masses.
The Catholic understanding of salvation is the CORRECT understanding of the scriptural data. The antiCatholic view
is misinterpretation of the scriptural data, period.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[djrakowski]

Catholic believe that our works are ultimately the fruits of grace and we cannot do anything pleasing to God apart from grace. That is standard Catholic doctrine. It’s a real shame that there is such a poor understanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

That’s why I’ve taken to quoting the Catechism in my responses. That way, we’re all clear on what the Church really teaches, as opposed to errant opinions of what it teaches. After all, according to our late Holy Father John Paul II, it is a “a sure norm for teaching the faith.”

 

[Gamera]

I have no clue as to who you are talking about here. It looks to me as if you are the one’s who do the cherry picking in scripture. You ignore what Paul teaches about being saved apart from the works of the law and what is really scary but unfortunately not surprising is how you ignore Christ’s own words when he said that one must ACCEPT Heaven as a child accepts a gift. Does that imply earning it?? If what you say is true, Jesus died for nothing then which I can personally attest to is not true.

BrandonRush, we do NOT believe that we “earn” heaven. Where on earth do you get this nonsense that we think “Jesus died for nothing?” Jesus died to pay for our sins. We all agree on that. The dispute is over how a person claims that payment. Do you think that we don’t need to do anything to claim Jesus’ victory in the cross? In that case, all 6 billion people on earth are already saved.

 

[Gamera]

This is not the faith that James spoke of and in fact it isn’t faith in Christ at all and above all, it is not even biblical.

Have you read the entire Bible?

 

[LittleDeb]

Hi again,

I would also like to add that I have looked into the catholic way of thinking regarding salvation(mainly because of this thread ). Then I study the way the bible speaks of salvation and what I keep going back to is if I think I have anything to do with my salvation(such as having to cooperate with it)I am just not trusting Jesus Christ enough.

I have to put my FULL TRUST in Christ and I cant do that if I think I have to cooperate in my salvation to get to heaven.:nope:

I have weighed both sides of thinking and Im sorry but the catholic way ( to me) seems to lack total trust and faith that Christ’s work on the cross was enough.

OK BACK TO TOPIC

I do see where you are coming from, I really do. I have always had a lot of respect for you and your thoughtful posts here. Thank you for your wonderful contributions to this forum.

A quick question though, How is putting trust in “Faith Alone” putting your FULL TRUST in God? He gave us Works to do. They are empty without Faith just as Faith is dead without Works.

Everything you have said in these two posts I can agree with, but only looking at the faith side of it. Faith and Works cannot be separated from each other. If we look at one we must be looking at both. The Catholic Church’s teaching is that they are tied together not that Faith results in Works. She doesn’t teach a “works based salvation” as another poster has wrongly asserted many times.

I totally agree with you that we are saved by Grace. We seem to diverge at the rest of that phrase. You say by Grace through Faith alone, and I say by Grace through Faith and Works.

As was mentioned before the emphasis on “keeping the commandments” and “feeding the hungry and clothing the naked” is so strong in Scripture. Works are necessary. I guess for me it came down to, “What we do is as important as how we feel.”

God bless you, again, for your thoughtful responses!

 

[LittleDeb]

BrandonRush, we do NOT believe that we “earn” heaven. Where on earth do you get this nonsense that we think “Jesus died for nothing?” Jesus died to pay for our sins. We all agree on that. The dispute is over how a person claims that payment. Do you think that we don’t need to do anything to claim Jesus’ victory in the cross? In that case, all 6 billion people on earth are already saved.

Well put!

 

[mikeledes]

I do see where you are coming from, I really do. I have always had a lot of respect for you and your thoughtful posts here. Thank you for your wonderful contributions to this forum.

A quick question though, How is putting trust in “Faith Alone” putting your FULL TRUST in God? He gave us Works to do. They are empty without Faith just as Faith is dead without Works.

Everything you have said in these two posts I can agree with, but only looking at the faith side of it. Faith and Works cannot be separated from each other. If we look at one we must be looking at both. The Catholic Church’s teaching is that they are tied together not that Faith results in Works. She doesn’t teach a “works based salvation” as another poster has wrongly asserted many times.

I totally agree with you that we are saved by Grace. We seem to diverge at the rest of that phrase. You say by Grace through Faith alone, and I say by Grace through Faith and Works.

As was mentioned before the emphasis on “keeping the commandments” and “feeding the hungry and clothing the naked” is so strong in Scripture. Works are necessary. I guess for me it came down to, “What we do is as important as how we feel.”

God bless you, again, for your thoughtful responses!

We must put our full trust in Jesus Christ. That means trusting what He has done for us and trusting what He has told us to do.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I do see where you are coming from, I really do. I have always had a lot of respect for you and your thoughtful posts here. Thank you for your wonderful contributions to this forum.

Thank you for being kind in return Dont you wish this is how all the conversations can be:thumbsup:

A quick question though, How is putting trust in “Faith Alone” putting your FULL TRUST in God? He gave us Works to do. They are empty without Faith just as Faith is dead without Works.

Well, because I am then relyinging totally on God and His promises to us. I am not putting myself in the equation at all. (Which is difficult because I would like to take credit for some things)Trusting completely in God is liking jumping off the edge of the Grand Canyon and having complete faith that God will catch you and never drop you. That is really hard.

Another illustration. If there was a man that was standing on a tightrope stretched across Niagra Falls and he kept telling people to walk out to him and he will assure you you will not fall. Would you do it?? That would take incredible faith to do. Let’s say you saw people go out there and they indeed were kept safe, would you still go out there even if you saw? Maybe maybe not it is all done by faith that that person is telling you the truth. You have to believe that the person will do what he says he is going to do. Same with God. I do have doubts and get scared sometimes, but that is when I go to the bible for reassurance.

Everything you have said in these two posts I can agree with, but only looking at the faith side of it. Faith and Works cannot be separated from each other. If we look at one we must be looking at both. The Catholic Church’s teaching is that they are tied together not that Faith results in Works. She doesn’t teach a “works based salvation” as another poster has wrongly asserted many times.

I guess it is the wording that catholics use that makes it confusing to us. On the one hand you say you know you are not saved by works but then on the other hand you say you cannot seperate the two. If you cannot seperate the two then your salvation is partially based on works.

You say by Grace through Faith alone, and I say by Grace through Faith and Works.

This is what I meant above. When you say faith and works it leads me and others to believe that you do believe your works save you. It may be secondary in belief but still part of the belief.

As was mentioned before the emphasis on “keeping the commandments” and “feeding the hungry and clothing the naked” is so strong in Scripture. Works are necessary. I guess for me it came down to, “What we do is as important as how we feel.”

Actually, I believe what we do is more important then what we feel. Trust me if I did only what I felt , I wouldnt be a very good christian. I believe works are necessary to show the world you are a christian and that you stand for Christ but I dont believe they will have anything to do with getting us into heaven. Here is how I look at it for myself—If you are right and I am wrong–Im still good to go because I have faith and I do works that glorify Christ. So either way–Im going to heaven AMEN!!!

God bless you, again, for your thoughtful responses!

Right back at ya:thumbsup:

 

[Ahimsa]

Trusting completely in God is liking jumping off the edge of the Grand Canyon and having complete faith that God will catch you and never drop you.

In other words, the “jump” is a good work that you did. Merely having faith, without taking the “jump”, wouldn’t be sufficient.

 

[LittleDeb]

I guess it is the wording that catholics use that makes it confusing to us. On the one hand you say you know you are not saved by works but then on the other hand you say you cannot seperate the two. If you cannot seperate the two then your salvation is partially based on works.
This is what I meant above. When you say faith and works it leads me and others to believe that you do believe your works save you. It may be secondary in belief but still part of the belief.
Actually, I believe what we do is more important then what we feel. Trust me if I did only what I felt , I wouldnt be a very good christian. I believe works are necessary to show the world you are a christian and that you stand for Christ but I dont believe they will have anything to do with getting us into heaven. Here is how I look at it for myself—If you are right and I am wrong–Im still good to go because I have faith and I do works that glorify Christ. So either way–Im going to heaven AMEN!!!
Right back at ya:thumbsup:

Again we agree on a lot of points. We as Catholics say we are saved by Grace (the gift of Jesus on the Cross.) How we claim that Grace (gift) is through Faith and Works. To a Catholic it is difficult to watch some Christians claim Faith Alone. It is even more difficult to watch a secular person claim “works alone.” I mean who among we Christians hasn’t heard something like this from a non-Christian, “Well if there is a heaven then I am probably going to go because I am a nice person and I help people. But I don’t need to KNOW Jesus to get there.” That is a “works alone” idea of Salvation.

I also agree that what we do is actually more important than how we feel. That is why I quoted the Scripture of “Faith Hope, and Love, but the greatest of these is Love.” But the minute a Catholic claims Works as greater than Faith we get someone saying, “See you don’t believe you need Faith.” We don’t believe that works alone will save us, just as we don’t believe that faith alone will save us. And we certainly don’t believe that ‘works of the law’ do anything because of the Gift of Christ on the Cross.

We are saved by Grace. We must claim that gift through Faith and Works. When Jesus says, “Your Faith has saved you,” is HE really saying that faith alone has saved her and NOT His Grace? As Catholics we will say that we are saved by Grace alone.

 

[Gamera]

In other words, the “jump” is a good work that you did. Merely having faith, without taking the “jump”, wouldn’t be sufficient.

LOL. If we Catholics said that we are saved by taking a leap of faith in Jesus, our Protestant friends would reply, “You can’t leap your way to heaven. Wasn’t Jesus’ death enough? Why do you have to add your own leaping?”

 

[luvmykids]

Jesus died for our sins, so that we may be saved, but God also gave us free will to choose His way or not. This is an act. We must choose to act. We obviously must have faith if we chose with our own free will, Him. If we don’t choose to follow Him, we must not have faith in Him, or we just reject Him. Satan has faith in Him, belief in Him, but does not choose to follow Him, therefore he rejected Him. No works on Satan’s part, just belief in Him, faith alone. Choosing to follow Him consists of an act of free will. This is a work. We cannot follow Him without works, but we also need faith to follow Him. Who would follow Him without faith in Him? And how can you follow Him without works? If Jesus Himself performed works, how is it that it is not necessary for us? How can you even call yourself christian without works?

Someone gave the example of the thief on the cross. If he had not died on the cross at that very moment, and continued to live his life without following Jesus, do you think he would have gone to heaven anyway? God requires something of us. We can choose Him or we can choose to reject Him, and it requires more than just a belief in Him, if we choose Him. We show our faith in Him through works.

 

[SFLCatholic]

It is so laughable how folks here will try and put words in your mouth or attempt to make you look stupid. I never said or even hinted that works and works of the law were the same thing. The emphasis was on trying to advertly do things to make your chances of salvation more favorable, whether that be works of the old law or works of today such as going to mass and such… That is what I was speaking of. And on those terms, she is wrong. If you truly believe as Catholic doctrine teaches that you must do things to merit yourself in the eyes of Jesus, then you are trying to earn your salvation. This is not the faith that James spoke of and in fact it isn’t faith in Christ at all and above all, it is not even biblical. Salvation doesn’t come from your own merit. This is why Jesus died on the cross. It was for ALL sin and it was truly sufficient. If it was for the criminal who hung next to Jesus, then it is for me as well.

“'The Son of God, whose eyes are like a fiery flame and whose feet are like polished brass, says this: … Thus shall all the churches come to know that I am the searcher of hearts and minds and that I will give each of you what your works deserve.” Rev 2:18,23

“Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Rev 22:12-13

Jesus makes it very clear that we will be judged by our works. If Jesus’ death was sufficient enough to wash away sins, why did He reveal these passages to John on the Book of Revelation after His death? Clearly Jesus wanted to make it known that we will be judged on how we act during our lifetime.

Its Catholic Doctrine from Jesus and through Apostolic succession. Its by His command and Divine Decree. If you truly believe in Jesus, you would stop fighting His teachings and become Catholic.

Here’s what Paul said to the Galatians in reference to works:

“Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ … Each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason to boast with regard to himself alone, and not with regard to someone else; for each will bear his own load.” Gal 6:2,4-5

If Faith is enough as you claim, why would Paul say this? Paul obviously wants us to know that we will be judged by our works.

We are commanded to do works. Faith may be enough to start the process, but its not enough to fulfill the laws of God.

And on those terms, you are wrong.

 

[queenofpeace]

ALLFORHIM:I am indeed saved by grace through faith and thenI am to do good works soley to glorify God. The fact is the only way we can do good works that glorify God is if we believe and have faith in Him in the first place. Of course God has to give us the grcae first (Thank you Lord for saving me ) I dont know it just all makes sense to me.

Very catholic! Congratulations! By giving your “FULL TRUST” to the Lord, you have COOPERATED and now you have a “LIVING FAITH!” Welcome to the catholic faith

 

[ALLFORHIM]

In other words, the “jump” is a good work that you did. Merely having faith, without taking the “jump”, wouldn’t be sufficient.

If you look at Ephesians 2:8-10—it says we are saved through faith and it is a GIFT and not of yourself–so it cannot be a work. Otherwise we can boast and really the only thing we should boast about is Christ’s work on the cross. make sense

There is a scripture that refers to only boasting in Christ. It is in one of Paul’s letters. Ill see if I can find it.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Again we agree on a lot of points. We as Catholics say we are saved by Grace (the gift of Jesus on the Cross.) How we claim that Grace (gift) is through Faith and Works. To a Catholic it is difficult to watch some Christians claim Faith Alone. It is even more difficult to watch a secular person claim “works alone.” I mean who among we Christians hasn’t heard something like this from a non-Christian, “Well if there is a heaven then I am probably going to go because I am a nice person and I help people. But I don’t need to KNOW Jesus to get there.” That is a “works alone” idea of Salvation.

I also agree that what we do is actually more important than how we feel. That is why I quoted the Scripture of “Faith Hope, and Love, but the greatest of these is Love.” But the minute a Catholic claims Works as greater than Faith we get someone saying, “See you don’t believe you need Faith.” We don’t believe that works alone will save us, just as we don’t believe that faith alone will save us. And we certainly don’t believe that ‘works of the law’ do anything because of the Gift of Christ on the Cross.

We are saved by Grace. We must claim that gift through Faith and Works. When Jesus says, “Your Faith has saved you,” is HE really saying that faith alone has saved her and NOT His Grace? As Catholics we will say that we are saved by Grace alone.

Thanks Deb for explaining:thumbsup: Yeah I wouldnt say grace alone either. I would lump grace and faith together and then say works is a result of the grace and faith.

Hey maybe because we are agreeing on much we can bring the 2 groups back together—LOL If only it were that simple

 

[ALLFORHIM]

ALLFORHIM:I am indeed saved by grace through faith and thenI am to do good works soley to glorify God. The fact is the only way we can do good works that glorify God is if we believe and have faith in Him in the first place. Of course God has to give us the grcae first (Thank you Lord for saving me ) I dont know it just all makes sense to me.

Very catholic! Congratulations! By giving your “FULL TRUST” to the Lord, you have COOPERATED and now you have a “LIVING FAITH!” Welcome to the catholic faith

I am glad to hear that is very catholic:thumbsup:

 

[SFLCatholic]

Thank you for that! You have to take into account, all of what scripture speaks to about salvation (which is quite a bit!) and then you come to the realization that your own salvation has little to do with what you do or can do set aside from your faith in Christ.

That’s quite a statement. Now prove that your salvation has little to do with what you do.

Before you answer, read Matt 13:44-46. Jesus spoke in parable so that we could understand. In this parable tell me how Jesus says that faith alone is enough.

Jesus is saying that once you find the Kingdom of God, you have to continually act to preserve your place in it. Faith alone is never enough once you have asked for God’s grace and salvation.

The only reason the criminal on the Cross was granted a place in Heaven along with Jesus was because he asked for forgiveness at the end of his life. This is also a Catholic Sacrament known as Last Rites.

But this does not “save” someone like you who is young and has many fruitful years to go. By your acceptance of Jesus in your Life, you are now charged with the knowledge of God. And you have to act on it.

As Jesus revealed to John; "“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot.” Rev 3:15

The Bible is very, very clear on this. As Jesus said, Salvation comes from the Jews. Part of this meaning is to keep the Ten Commandments. The Jews were not about faith alone. Read Leviticus.

Are you lukewarm BrandenRush?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

If you look at Ephesians 2:8-10—it says we are saved through faith and it is a GIFT and not of yourself–so it cannot be a work. Otherwise we can boast and really the only thing we should boast about is Christ’s work on the cross. make sense

There is a scripture that refers to only boasting in Christ. It is in one of Paul’s letters. Ill see if I can find it.

I found it----Galations 6:14

 

[LittleDeb]

Thanks Deb for explaining:thumbsup: Yeah I wouldnt say grace alone either. I would lump grace and faith together and then say works is a result of the grace and faith.

Hey maybe because we are agreeing on much we can bring the 2 groups back together—LOL If only it were that simple

I wish it were so, but this IS where we do diverge. Catholics do believe in “grace alone” through Faith AND works. We don’t believe works are a result of Faith. We believe Grace is the true gift and the acceptance of that gift has two necessary parts.

Here’s an analogy that helped me understand the difference many years ago. Many people who say “Faith results in Works” can agree with the comparison of Grace being a gift, like a packaged gift, wrapped up beautifully with a bow. The analogy is that Faith is the acceptance of the gift and the Works are the opening the gift and using it.

The “Faith alone but results in Works” folks will argue that opening the gift is an automatic response to receiving the gift. Catholic teaching says, “not always so.” It often is but not always. The Faith alone folks will say that opening the gift is not necessary. They will say that because it is a gift (Grace) and we have received it in Faith that is enough. We will then show our thanks by opening it (works.) They will say that that opening it is not necessary to completely receive it, and that it is a result of receiving it to open it.

True Story: A close relative was using this example to explain the difference to a “Faith results in Works” girlfriend. She was arguing that opening the gift was completely automatic. She said when one receives a gift one WILL open it. He was saying that it would seem logical that way, but it was not so. He said that accepting the gift (Faith) was necessary and opening it (Works) was necessary for the gift to be fully given and received. She could almost agree with that, but again said that opening it was automatic and someone would have to be insane to accept a gift yet not open it, that opening happened no matter what, but it was not necessary to open it for the gift to be fully given and received anyway.

That Christmas her own son was going through a rebellious time and was very mad at her. He came to her house on Christmas and received all the gifts she gave him. He would not however, open them. He piled them in a corner unopened. She said that it almost hurt her more that he had received the gifts and left them unopened than it would have if he had rejected them outright. She said, “why did I bother giving them then?” My relative didn’t have the heart to remind her of their previous conversation while she was in such a vulnerable state. He accepted, but did not open, and she felt the giving was a waste because he didn’t open. She still holds to her “Faith results in Works” theology to this day. Now he did it out of anger, but the point was that we CAN still accept something and yet reject it by not opening it. AND that she felt the gifts were not received because they remained unopened.

All analogies are faulty on some level, but I hope this one can sort of explain it better.