The Truth: We Are Saved By Faith Alone

[mikeledes]

Are you advocating salvation by works only?

Obviously not. It is by the freely given Spirit that we are able to peform these works and “put to death the deeds of the body.”

Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Hi LilDeb

Thanks for your concern. Protestants surely understand the difference between “works of the Law” and “good works” or “works of righteousness”. The protestant view and I believe the biblical view is that any attempt to add works of any kind to merit salvation is no longer Grace received by Faith for justification.

Certainly the Romans were not under the Mosaic law.

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Paul talks about the Law of sin and death, this is a universal law for all humanity.

Rom 8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5).

Paul does talk about the Jewish law, but clearly the intention is all Law, all works of righteousness, all works cannot add to acheiving justification.

In terms of the context of the letter to the Romans as a whole. I think that the Jewish law was specifically what Paul had in mind, as he was writing to a Christian community that was made up of two discreet groups of people, those who had grown up Jewish and those who had grown up pagan. Somehow, they had to come to respect each other as equally Christian, that meant that one could not brag about one’s relationship to the Law of Moses or of how Christ had saved them apart from the Law. Rather, they were one by their common faith in Christ, apart from anything to do with the Law of Moses. It seems that Paul very pointed address in particular those who would have grown-up in connection with the Law of Moses. Thus he makes multitude references to this Law for 7 chapters and then artfully alludes to a number of other laws:

Romans 7:21
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

Romans 7:23
but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

Romans 8:2
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

But when it comes to being under obligation, Paul has this to say, “Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law” (Romans 13:8). Indeed while Paul talks about the Law nearly continuously throughout the letter to the Romans, his very last comment about it is:

Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

May I suggest that if,. as others suggest, doiing (good) works of fiath is a key to (working out one’s) salvation, then Paul has given us the key to those works: “Love is the fulfillment of the law.” Or as Mikeledes quoted from elsewhere: “as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.”

Welcoming one another as full brothers in the faith, without distinction between Catholic and non-Catholic, just as Paul encouraged the Chrisians of his day not to get caught up in their past histories, and doing good to all is the way to fulfill this law that calls us to works of faith. How will the non-Christian world ever come to believe that we really mean we love them, if we can’t even love one another?

 

[kaycee]

Obviously not. It is by the freely given Spirit that we are able to peform these works and “put to death the deeds of the body.”

Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

God Bless,
Michael

Context, Contex, Context!

Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because **through Christ Jesus **the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit
Rom 8:8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Christians ARE those who live by the Spirit.

 

[water]

Could somebody here say he believes in Christ and never want to do any work?

 

[Grace_Seeker]

kaycee and mikeledes, while I once could, I can’t see the disticntion between your two points of view anymore.

 

[kaycee]

Romans 7:21
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

Romans 7:23
but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

Romans 8:2
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Clearly this is the law of sin and death, not the mosaic law.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work:

But when it comes to being under obligation, Paul has this to say, “Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law” (Romans 13:8). Indeed while Paul talks about the Law nearly continuously throughout the letter to the Romans, his very last comment about it is:

Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Yes, fulfilling the law, but this is not meant as a pre-requisite for salvation.

May I suggest that if,. as others suggest, doiing (good) works of fiath is a key to (working out one’s) salvation, then Paul has given us the key to those works: “Love is the fulfillment of the law.” Or as Mikeledes quoted from elsewhere: “as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.”

Then you make salvation a debt paid by God to you.

It is no longer of Grace and you can now boast.

Rom 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, **to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. **

Salvation is not do, do. Salvation is Done, by God alone.

 

[mikeledes]

Christians ARE those who live by the Spirit.

Christians are those who have the Holy Spirit and only those who persevere in living by the Spirit, putting to death the deeds of the body, will enjoy final salvation. You must be in Christ and abide in Christ.

Hebrews 12:14

14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord

And what does sanctification entail?

1 Peter 1:15-17

15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear

1 Thessalonians 4:3-7

3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness

That’s why Saint Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

And thus Christians must, by the Spirit they have received, persevere in bringing their body into subjection by putting to death the deeds of the body. We must not grieve the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

God bless,
Michael

 

[kaycee]

Christians are those who have the Holy Spirit and only those who persevere in living by the Spirit, putting to death the deeds of the body, will enjoy final salvation. You must be in Christ and abide in Christ.

Yes, True Christians WILL persevere.

Phil1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 12:14

14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord

And what does sanctification entail?

1 Peter 1:15-17

15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear

1 Thessalonians 4:3-7

3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness

That’s why Saint Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

And thus Christians must, by the Spirit they have received, persevere in bringing their body into subjection by putting to death the deeds of the body. We must not grieve the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

God bless,
Michael

YES, Christians do all those things, but not for salvation. It is because THEY ARE saved.

 

[water]

YES, Christians do all those things, but not for salvation. It is because THEY ARE saved.

You’ll be surpised to find out Hell is a place for many Christians who said “I prophesized, I cursed out deamon in your names”.

 

[kaycee]

You’ll be surpised to find out Hell is a place for many Christians who said “I prophesized, I cursed out deamon in your names”.

Obviously, these people thought they were Christians because of their “good works”.

The Lord Never knew them. They were Never Christians.

 

[robertjnolan]

Brandon, in post #267 you were almost there. It is obvious you have a problem with “works.” You claim works are the fruit of faith, that is incorrect. Works and faith are the result of Grace and our concious and willful acceptance of that Grace given to us by God. One without the other is no good. That is clear from scripture.

The problem most of us Catholics have with protestantism is that their theology doesn’t take all scripture into consideration. Since all scripture is true, there cannot be contradiction. If there appears contradiction, the interpreter must be in error. The Catholic Church (yes it has existed since the first century and by name since the second century) had fifteen hundred years of study, reflection, study and analysis of scripture before Luther, Calvin and the other “reformers” offered their interpretations. Peter warns us of interpreting scripture without the Church. It leads to error. Not one protestant denomination is complete in its theology because it cannot reconcile scripture fully because it would be in conflict with that particular denominations teaching.

Please show us one place you see error between scripture and the teaching of the Catholic Church. Please restrict yourself to doctrine and morals. God bless,

 

[water]

Obviously, these people thought they were Christians because of their “good works”.

The Lord Never knew them. They were Never Christians.

No, because they are lack of love and many other reasons.
If they don’t know Christ or believe in Christ, what is the point of casting out demons in His Name.

 

[mikeledes]

Yes, True Christians WILL persevere.

Phil1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

YES, Christians do all those things, but not for salvation. It is because THEY ARE saved.

Matthew 10:22

But he who endures to the end will be saved.

We are saved and we will be saved if we persevere. It does not say those who are saved will persevere. Regarding perseverance, I stated the following in a previous post:

1 Corinthians 9:26

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Philippians 3:12-14

**12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. **

Hebrews 4:11

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Now the first verse is often explained away by claiming that it is merely talking about rewards, not salvation. However, this argument contradicts the Calvinist notion of the perseverance of the saints. Why? Because if Saint Paul had been disqualified, it would be because he failed to keep his body in subjection and that would mean he was overcome by sin. This reminds me of 2 Peter 2:20:

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

So if perseverance is a sign of election, then 1 Corinthian 9:26 cannot be about mere rewards. If a person failed to persevere and was disqualified and did not receive the crown, does that not also mean that the person will not be saved? Compare** Matthew 10:22**

"… But he who endures to the end will be saved."

with Revelation 2:10

Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

and James 1:12

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

So if the crown is given to all those who persevere to the end, then does that not mean that is given to all those who are glorified? If this is so, then doesn’t diqualification from receiving the crown mean the same thing as disqualification from being glorified? Thus Paul can only be talking about disqualification from final salvation in 1 Corinthians 9:26. But if he were a Calvinist, would he cast such doubt on his own salvation?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

There are several passages in Ezekiel that indicate that not all of the justified (i.e. rightoeus) will persevere. The more I read Ezekiel, the more convinced I am that the Calvinists are wrong. Ezekiel 33:13 is actually a “companion piece” to Ezekiel 18:5-9. The latter states:

**5"But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period–
7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully–he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD. **

So God has declared the person righteous in His sight and finds his righteous acts pleasing. He thus gives the person His seal of approavel (He shall surely live). But what does Ezekiel 33:13 state:

**13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. **

So after God gives his seal of approval to a righteous person (“He shall surely live)” and has thus declared the person and their righteous acts pleasing in His sight, the righteous person now figures that since God was so pleased with him and his conduct, he can “relax” and commit iniquity, believing that his righteous past will cover him. He figures that God is pleased with him, so He’ll cut him some slack. Wrong! We already know what happens. And what happens completely contradicts Calvinist dotrine, a righteous man who turns away from God and dies in that state.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Please show us one place you see error between scripture and the teaching of the Catholic Church. Please restrict yourself to doctrine and morals. God bless,

I believe there is a thread about this already. This is not the right thread for this topic

 

[mikeledes]

YES, Christians do all those things, but not for salvation. It is because THEY ARE saved.

I just want to add that this is not completely accurate. God has promised final salvation to those among the justified who persevere in holiness (i.e. works) rooted in faith and love.

Romans 2:6-7

who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Galatians 6:7-9

**7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. **

You reap what you sow. That clearly indicates that our actions do have an impact on our eternal destiny.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Clearly this is the law of sin and death, not the mosaic law.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work:

Yes, fulfilling the law, but this is not meant as a pre-requisite for salvation.

Then you make salvation a debt paid by God to you.

It is no longer of Grace and you can now boast.

Rom 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, **to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. **

Salvation is not do, do. Salvation is Done, by God alone.

Kaycee, I think you misunderstood my post. Try reading it again. I never said that salvation is based on what we do. I certainly never even implied that salvation is something that God owes us. And I never once talked about keeping the mosiac law as a pre-requisite for anything.

You opened with a comment on my post as follows:

Grace Seeker;2542019:

Romans 7:21
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

Romans 7:23
but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

Romans 8:2
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Clearly this is the law of sin and death, not the mosaic law.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work:

But that is not really fair to what I said. You have to read what I said before I listed those 3 verses, which was,

In terms of the context of the letter to the Romans as a whole. I think that the Jewish law was specifically what Paul had in mind, as he was writing to a Christian community that was made up of two discreet groups of people, those who had grown up Jewish and those who had grown up pagan. Somehow, they had to come to respect each other as equally Christian, that meant that one could not brag about one’s relationship to the Law of Moses or of how Christ had saved them apart from the Law. Rather, they were one by their common faith in Christ, apart from anything to do with the Law of Moses. It seems that Paul very pointed address in particular those who would have grown-up in connection with the Law of Moses. Thus he makes multitude references to this Law for 7 chapters and then artfully alludes to a number of other laws:

The colon ( : ) at the end of that last sentence lets the reader know that here comes else to complete the thought of the sentence. In this case what follows is the list of the allusions Paul makes to other laws, i.e. laws beyond the Mosiac law that he has been talking about through most of the first 7 chapters of the letter. Thus, a careful reading of what I actually wrote, rather than what you thought I wrote, would tell you that I was NOT saying that any of those verses had to do with the Mosiac law. In point of fact (with rather poor grammar, I see on re-reading) I had said that they were allusions to “other” laws.

You then go on to challenge points as if I had offered them in my post, but they are ideas that I never expressed and ideas that I don’t believe.

All I was saying was that “if,. as others suggest, doiing (good) works of fiath is a key to (working out one’s) salvation, then Paul has given us the key to those works.” That key, I submit, is learning how to show love to one another. I think that this command is true no matter one’s theological predispostion. It’s not about salvation, it is about being faithful, and living a holy life, which we should all be about in terms of how we relate to one another.

I was hoping that Catholics should see in it that it wouldn’t hurt to “do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith”, even if they are not Catholic. But those words aren’t addressed to Catholics alone, they are addressed to us all.

To paraphrase a a line from childhood song – If you’re saved and you know it, show some love.

“Love is the fulfillment of the law.”

 

[kotek]

I just want to add that this is not completely accurate. God has promised final salvation to those among the justified who persevere in holiness (i.e. works) rooted in faith and love.

Romans 2:6-7

who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Galatians 6:7-9

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.

You reap what you sow. That clearly indicates that our actions do have an impact on our eternal destiny.

God Bless,
Michael

“To those among the Justified” herin lies the rub, a

 

[Bishopite]

Catholic believe that our works are ultimately the fruits of grace and we cannot do anything pleasing to God apart from grace. That is standard Catholic doctrine. It’s a real shame that there is such a poor understanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

God Bless,
Michael

You make a great point here. Many do not know that Catholicism way back in 529 AD at the council of Orange dealt with works apart from God’s grace…

CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.

CANON 19. That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could be no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe- guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God?

CANON 20. That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.

These canons by the council of Orange 529 AD are directly addressing the false idea of pelagianism which is the false theological idea that there wa no original sin and that we can choose good without God’s grace first giving us that ability.

 

[justasking4]

SFLCatholic;2541769]I disagree. Its about your own salvation.

What specific verse makes you think this?

Its a discourse by Paul about safeguarding that salvation by following Jesus commandment that we love others as we love ourselves. Isn’t this the greatest commandmment?

When you use the word “salvation” here do you mean salvation in terms of eternal salvation vs being condemned?

i agree with your comment on the greatest commandment.

Once saved, is not always saved.

Let’s assume this is correct and i’m wrong. When a catholic sins, is he still saved?

If he commits a mortal is he saved?

One further question: When a catholic goes to confession with sin on his soul is he then “resaved”?

Paul does say in this first verse that we should help our brothers. Yes you are right on that point. But the rest of the chapter is about doing good works to keep your salvation.

“Brothers, even if a person is caught in some transgression, you who are spiritual should correct that one in a gentle spirit, looking to yourself, so that you also may not be tempted” Gal 6:1

Here Paul is cautioning us that we should not be tempted by the transgression of others. Meaning, stay the course in your good works and faith so that you do not lose your salvation. Working to help your brother also helps you. Its a good work.

i agree with much that you say here. I disagree that this is about “losing your salvation” though.

“Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ” Gal 6:2

Paul again cautioning us. He is reminding us of Jesus commandment to love others as you love yourself. In essence, you are your brothers keeper. Fulfill the law of Christ so that you may remain on the road to Eternal Life.

Again i agree with much here. however, the fulfilling to the law of Christ in this chapter is not related to keeping our salvation but rather a “working out of that law” by helping a brother.

" … the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit." Gal 6:8

Pretty clear that Paul is again warning us how to gain and keep our gift of Salvation.

I think i can understand why you would say this if you believe you can lose your salvation. I think that what he is saying here is not about losing your salvation but are you living a life that will have eternal fruit. Throughout the gospels Jesus teaches that what we do in this life has eternal repercussions. Take for example the giving of water in His name will not lose your reward. Or the parable of the talents where the servants are rewards for investing wisely.

“Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up.” Gal 6:9

Paul once more warning us that we must keep up our good works to safeguard our Salvation.

Since i’m coming from “once saved always saved” i don’t take this to mean i am to safeguard our salvation in the sense that it can be lost, but rather we are to continue to do good even when it doesn’t seem to do anything good. This is an exhortation to perserve when you feel like giving up.

Have you read Galatians Chapter 6? If so, what is your interpretation. In detail please.

Yes i have read it many times and as you know its rich. To give you a detail interpretation would require a lot of time which i really don’t have.
If you are a catholic, you are one the few that i have seen on these threads that seems to take the scriptures seriously and has some knowledge of them. It refreshing and i commend you for it.