The Truth: We Are Saved By Faith Alone

[Rbt_Southwell]

So, how about the prayer that we offer turning our lives over to Jesus. Well, that is a prayer of faith, faith that we can trust in Jesus to do what he has promised and save us, not a work of faith. The moment that idea comes to our mind that we need to offer up such a prayer, I believe God declares us justified in his sight.

Grace Seeker,

This is the most current statement of yours which is non-Scriptural. Well, if Scripture is YOUR basis for what the economy of salvation is with God.

You base salvation/justification on that “moment [the] idea comes to our mind” to pray that Jesus does what he promised us he would do and “save us.”

A second statement of yours: “This grace is something we appropriate I am told in scripture through faith,” is without basis of any kind in Scripture.

“Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us.” (CCC 2003)

But here is a clearer explanation of what I was referring to (I apologize for the little joke about the Catholic canon and the Protestant version of the Bible: the 7 books):

“The Paschal mystery has two aspects: by his death, Christ liberates us from sin; by his Resurrection, he opens for us the way to a new life. This new life is above all justification that reinstates us in God’s grace, ‘so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.’ [Romans 6:4 and cf. 4:25]” (CCC 654).

Robert

 

[Grace_Seeker]

You base salvation/justification on that “moment [the] idea comes to our mind” to pray that Jesus does what he promised us he would do and “save us.”

No, actually I don’t base it on that. I said that is when it occurs, not the reason it occurs. As with all acts of grace, the base for it is not what we do, but that God wills to offer grace to us.

A second statement of yours: “This grace is something we appropriate I am told in scripture through faith,” is without basis of any kind in Scripture.

Surely you jest. Ephesians 2:8 – “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith…”

“Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us.” (CCC 2003)

I assume you are basing that idea on 1 Corinthians 6:11, but if so, please don’t object to not finding things specifically mentioned in scripture, because there is no way you can get the idea of grace as a gift from this passage accept by accepting that understanding from other passages of scripture and then making the link between them. I agree that it is true, but you have given up the chance to argue against those who say “faith alone” simply because it isn’t found in scripture.

(I apologize for the little joke about the Catholic canon and the Protestant version of the Bible: the 7 books)

I took it as a joke. I don’t generally get offended by such things; though, be forwarned, I might give it back in kind.

“The Paschal mystery has two aspects: by his death, Christ liberates us from sin; by his Resurrection, he opens for us the way to a new life. This new life is above all justification that reinstates us in God’s grace, ‘so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.’ [Romans 6:4 and cf. 4:25]” (CCC 654).

Yeah. This is what we speak of too. But justification is just the beginning moment of a process that continues from that point on. Justification is God’s declaration of how he views us because we are in Christ. It doesn’t really change us, though because of it the nature of our relationship with God is actually changed. Regeneration (which occurs simultaneously with justification, but is not the same thing as justification, is the new life (though I prefer to say “new birth”) you speak of. Justification is just the announcement of God’s acceptance of us. Sanctification is God working in our lives to make us holy.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Surely you jest. Ephesians 2:8 – “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith…”

Thanks you your clarifications, Grace Seeker.

As to your above reply, I believe that if you finished the quotation in context you would understand better what I was referring to:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God.”

So, you see, we do not “appropriate it” as the result of some act of faith (that little prayer example of yours), it is a result of baptism.

A very old, traditional and scriptural understanding of the Church.

Robert

 

[Southsider433]

I have a question does Sola Fide mean after my hearttfelt acceptance of Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and savior is there nothing that I can do to lose my salvation?

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Thanks you your clarifications, Grace Seeker.

As to your above reply, I believe that if you finished the quotation in context you would understand better what I was referring to:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God.”

So, you see, we do not “appropriate it” as the result of some act of faith (that little prayer example of yours), it is a result of baptism.

A very old, traditional and scriptural understanding of the Church.

Robert

Finishing the quotation just continues the thought that this faith is a gift from God, which I have alread spoken of many times.

If you see more in there than that, well, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. It seems (though hopefully I’m misunderstanding you) as if you are wanting to read into that passage a reference to baptism. If that were the case, we could just baptize people and the result would be that they were Christians, whether they understood it or accepted it or not. I’ll walk right up to the edge of that with you, but I won’t jump over that cliff. And I’m not saying that baptism isn’t important or that it doesn’t convey grace, but I don’t think that regenerating grace is actually available in baptism. I see it more as a sign of God’s prevenient grace.

The word that we translate “through” in Greek is dia with the genative. We see it used again the same way in Ephesians 2:16 – “in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross” (NIV) or “that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross” (KJV) or “might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross” (Douay).

So, going back to 2:8 agian, grace is at once the objective, operational, and instrumental cause. That is we owe our salvation entirely to God’s favor. But Paul expands on that adding that the subjective medium or apprehending cause (i.e. how we appropriate it, receive it) of salvation is faith. Verse 9 goes on to tell us that it does not have anything to do with works – not as the cause, though certainly as a result and response to God’s saving grace (indeed verse 10 will categorically state that we are actually created for this purpose of doing good works). How else can baptism be understood, except to see it as a work, even though the chief actor in it is God. So, the grace that effects our salvation is found in faith, not baptism.

Faith, however, as Skevington Wood writes, “is not a quality, a virtue, or a faculty. It is not something that man can produce. It is simply a trustful response that is itself evoked [just as you said earlier] by the Holy Spirit.”

So, other than your reading of baptism into this passage (where I don’t see it), I think we may be in agreement about what it says.

 

[Bishopite]

Grace Seeker;2552755]We are so close that it boils down, as you said, to what we mean by “work”. While I agree with you that prayer and genuine repentance can indeed be seen as works of faith; however, I don’t think that this was what James had in his mind when he wrote his epistle. I don’t think he was thinking of the comatose, the person in jail, the thief on the cross either. It appears to me (purely an unsubstantiated and unsubstantiatable assumption on my part) that he was thinking of people who were able to go about their daily business. And so I only seek to apply his directives to those who are in those positions.

I agree that James was addressing the normal Christian person. I would say that it is evident in the book of James that he is essentially saying to those Christians that if they say one thing and act another way (say they have faith but don’t show their faith) like not helping orhpans or widows (1:27-28), treating others of stature above the lowly and poor (2:1-9) then they don’t posess true faith or how one should live their life as a Christian and moreover in Chapter 2 goes beyond just practicle advice but says that “faith without works is dead” [faith] therefore it IS a salvific book, a book on soterology, especially in chapter 2:17-24.

I’m not saying that you are wrong in considering the person who is confined for the rest of their life to lay in a bed drinking through a straw as doing works of faith by his/her prayers. I agree they are. I just think that such as person is already saved before s/he started praying. And that except for the prayer we offering turning our lives over to God, that all of our prayers are in response to what Christ has done in saving us – that is what makes them works of faith, rather than just works of the law.

Right and I see your point here and I don’t at all disagree with you that God knows our will before we do and saves us in our heart or will before it goes to through our intellect or mouth. However, with that said, that in and of itself doesn’t deny the reality of a person doing a work of faith by their will after being given grace.

So, how about the prayer that we offer turning our lives over to Jesus. Well, that is a prayer of faith, faith that we can trust in Jesus to do what he has promised and save us, not a work of faith. The moment that idea comes to our mind that we need to offer up such a prayer, I believe God declares us justified in his sight.

But the prayer that we offer to Jesus in turning our lives to Him is in our will and is our response to Him; it IS an act or a work of faith. The Holy Spirit prompts us and we resond in our will which again, is an act of the will, that is to say a work of faith. If we are free to choose Jesus and we are, and if grace precedes faith, and it does then the work of faith is what we do even though God first gave us the grace to do it.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I agree that James was addressing the normal Christian person. I would say that it is evident in the book of James that he is essentially saying to those Christians that if they say one thing and act another way (say they have faith but don’t show their faith) like not helping orhpans or widows (1:27-28), treating others of stature above the lowly and poor (2:1-9) then they don’t posess true faith or how one should live their life as a Christian and moreover in Chapter 2 goes beyond just practicle advice but says that “faith without works is dead” [faith].

Check.

Right and I see your point here and I don’t at all disagree with you that God knows our will before we do and saves us in our heart or will before it goes to through our intellect or mouth. However, with that said, that in and of itself doesn’t deny the reality of a person doing a work of faith by their will after being given grace.

Concur again.
Hey, we’re two for two.

But the prayer that we offer to Jesus in turning our lives to Him is in our will and is our response to Him; it IS an act or a work of faith. The Holy Spirit prompts us and we resond in our will which again, is an act of the will, that is to say a work of faith. If we are free to choose Jesus and we are, and if grace precedes faith, and it does then the work of faith is what we do even though God first gave us the grace to do it.

Assuming that we are no longer just trying to interpret James, but all of scripture, then sure. God first gave us the grace to have the faith that we do have. But that makes it God’s work, not ours. That’s why I said we appropriate the grace God has showered on us through the faith with which he has gifted us.

 

[Bishopite]

Grace Seeker;2554682]Check.
Assuming that we are no longer just trying to interpret James, but all of scripture, then sure. God first gave us the grace to have the faith that we do have.

Earlier I didn’t realize that you were strictly focusing on the book of James, but I sort of clued in later. I still affirm James is not merely giving practicle advice but sorterology itself in chapter 2.

But that makes it God’s work, not ours. That’s why I said we appropriate the grace God has showered on us through the faith with which he has gifted us.

That it is ultimately Gods work is true because we don’t really have the claim on the good for it was God’s grace that gave us the ability to do the good in the first place. Nevertheless, that doesn’t deny our free choice to do works, nor that we are doing the works of faith with OUR will. God doesn’t live by faith, He exists in the eternal now, I thought I’d just throw that last part in for kicks
In all candor though, I believe it is St. Augustine who nailed faith and works on the head when he said against pelagianism…

“What then is the merit of man before grace by which merit he should receive grace? Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts.” (Ep. 154, 5. 16)

And, you are a Methodist pastor right? My children were baptized Methodist when they were very little before we became Catholic. I was raised Southern Baptist but could no longer accept Baptistic theology as there were to many theological issues that I simply did not accept any longer, e.g., once saved always saved et al that were part of fundamentalism and void of the early church. My family and I in interim attended a Methodist church being it was more palitable at the time.

 

[DixiesFinest]

I have a question does Sola Fide mean after my hearttfelt acceptance of Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and savior is there nothing that I can do to lose my salvation?

To no ones great surprise, protestants are divided over this facet of theology also, yes southsider, classic sola fide teaching says that “once you have been saved, you will always be saved,” thereby contradicting the clear teaching of the Holy Scriptures and Sacred Tradition…

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will inherit the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven” (Matt. 7:21).

“See, then, the kindness and severity of God; severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22-23).

“I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

“These things happened to them as an example, and they have been written down as a warning to us, upon whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall” (1 Cor. 10:11-12).

“You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace” (Gal. 5:4).

“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him.** But if we deny him he will deny us.** If we are unfaithful he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself” (2 Tim. 2:11-13).

“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins. But a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries” (Heb. 10:26-27).

envoymagazine.com/backissues/1.1/nutsandbolts.html
catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

 

[heisenburg]

As a Catholic… I love Eph2:8

“For by grace you are saved…”

Something the Catholic Church has always taught, Saved by Grace Alone!

“Through Faith…”

Has the church ever taught you don’t need faith? Not that I know

“And not by works”

Because there really is nothing we can do to earn our salvation… something the church has also always taught…

verse 9
For we are created to do good works in christ

Something often over looked
But also a key understanding. Though we are saved by Grace Alone, which is what 2:8 says (not faith alone) and we are to honor him by doing works in HIS name

Always felt Eph 2:8,9 was the perfect statement for what the Catholic Church teaches at its simplest.

In Christ

 

[Grace_Seeker]

To no ones great surprise, protestants are divided over this facet of theology also, yes southsider, classic sola fide teaching says that “once you have been saved, you will always be saved,” thereby contradicting the clear teaching of the Holy Scriptures and Sacred Tradition…

Shouldn’t someone who believes in Sola Fide be the one to answer southsider’s question as to whether it then follows that OSAS is the automatic corollary to that teaching?

 

[DixiesFinest]

Shouldn’t someone who believes in Sola Fide be the one to answer southsider’s question as to whether it then follows that OSAS is the automatic corollary to that teaching?

I am a recent convert to Catholicism, I did believe in favor of Sola Fide, and argued vehemently for it for the greater part of my life so far, so therefore with some authority I can say that protestants are divided amongst themselves, though the majority hold that Sola Fide implies and leads to OSAS.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I am a recent convert to Catholicism, I did believe in favor of Sola Fide, and argued vehemently for it for the greater part of my life so far, so therefore with some authority I can say that protestants are divided amongst themselves, though the majority hold that Sola Fide implies and leads to OSAS.

I agree with you that protestants do not agree on this. Being not one who believes in the classical understanding of Sola Fide, I didn’t feel able to speak to whether it implies and leads to OSAS (which I also do not hold). So, in lieu of someone who currently holds those views, I guess you are the closest we got to an authority on the topic. Scary thought, huh?

 

[Idahown]

If I agree to faith alone, you will have to open your heart to purgatory. Because although faith alone might save you. There is an obvious difference (and Justness) between a murderer who has found Jesus (and is saved) and Mother Theresa. Yes God loves us all, but as a Teacher might love all students, they are still graded differently and fairly.

James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by faith alone
James 2:26 faith without works is dead

 

[Grace_Seeker]

There is an obvious difference (and Justness) between a murderer who has found Jesus (and is saved) and Mother Theresa. Yes God loves us all, but as a Teacher might love all students, they are still graded differently and fairly.

From a human perspective, yes. But not from God’s perspective. I’ve never heard of this being something that was part of Catholic teaching either.

 

[Idahown]

From a human perspective, yes. But not from God’s perspective. I’ve never heard of this being something that was part of Catholic teaching either.

Which perspective are you talking about, and is this your opinion of “perspective”?

Why didn’t you choose to say anything about the bible references?

James
2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

 

[promethius95945]

From a human perspective, yes. But not from God’s perspective. I’ve never heard of this being something that was part of Catholic teaching either.

JESUS IN THE BIBLE; 2557883:

Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you

Grace says there’s no difference in rewards in heaven. Jesus says otherwise. Who’s word are you going to take for it?

 

[Southsider433]

Well I appreciate those who tried to answer me. I really would have liked a Protestant to clarify the definition for me. I am a cradle Catholic and have only now begun a true search for the why’s of the Church. And to tell you the truth it is great to know I was born into this deep rich religion.

Anyway the reason I ask for a definition is so that I know what the thread means exactly, what the posters doctrine is. I would like to ask some questions but like someone posted earlier Protestants are split any number of ways and it makes it hard to debate what is an ever changing doctrine. And I would also like to know which Protestant Sola Fide doctrine I should believe as the true doctine so that we could have a doctrine a’ doctrine debate.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Which perspective are you talking about, and is this your opinion of “perspective”?

Why didn’t you choose to say anything about the bible references?

James
2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Because the verses you cited aren’t relevant to the issue of rewards. They are about getting in the door, not about what rooms one visits once inside.

When God dwells in those who love Him, He changes them. (2 Peter 1:4) God does not merely regard us in a different light; His love is powerful and transforms those who love Him. In justifying us He causes us to “put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness” (Eph. 4:24). We who had been aliens and outcasts because of sin become sons by adoption, truly sharing in His life.

God truly gives us new life when he justifies us.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Well I appreciate those who tried to answer me. I really would have liked a Protestant to clarify the definition for me. I am a cradle Catholic and have only now begun a true search for the why’s of the Church. And to tell you the truth it is great to know I was born into this deep rich religion.

Anyway the reason I ask for a definition is so that I know what the thread means exactly, what the posters doctrine is. I would like to ask some questions but like someone posted earlier Protestants are split any number of ways and it makes it hard to debate what is an ever changing doctrine. And I would also like to know which Protestant Sola Fide doctrine I should believe as the true doctine so that we could have a doctrine a’ doctrine debate.

Try this –Semper Reformanda is a sub-board of Christian Forums specifically set aside for those of the Reformed Tradition. You should find lots of people there willing to share with you about Sola Fide and probably even OSAS.