The Tsunami and God

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  1. Second Message on August 3, 1973
    Code: 
      "My daughter, my novice, do you love the Lord? If you love the Lord listen to   what I have to say to you."

   "It is very important. You will convey it to your superior." 

   "Many men in this world afflict the Lord. I desire souls to console Him to   soften the anger of the Heavenly Father. I wish, with my Son, for souls who will repair by   their suffering and their poverty for the sinners and ingrates."

   "In order that the world might know His anger, **the   Heavenly Father is preparing to inflict a great chastisement on all mankind**.   With my Son, I have intervened so many times to appease the wrath of the Father. I have   prevented the coming of calamities by offering Him the sufferings of the Son on the Cross,   His Precious Blood, and beloved souls who console Him and form a cohort of victim souls.   Prayer, penance and courageous sacrifices can soften the Father's anger. I desire this   also from your community, that it love poverty, that it sanctify itself and pray in   reparation for the ingratitude and outrages of so many men. Recite the prayer of the   Handmaids of the Eucharist with awareness of its meaning: put it into practice: offer   (whatever God may send) in reparation for sins. Let each one endeavour, according to   capacity and position, to offer herself entirely to the Lord."

   "Even in a secular institute prayer is necessary. Already souls who wish to   pray are on the way to being gathered. Without attaching too much attention to the form,   be faithful and fervent in prayer to console the Master."

[list=1]
    Third and the Last message on October 13, 1973:
    Code: 
       ". . . if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a   terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such   as one will never have seen before. **Fire will fall from the sky   and will wipe out a great part of humanity,** the good as well as the bad,   sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that   they will envy the dead. The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and   the Sign left by my Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray   for the Pope, the bishops and the priests." 

 "**The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the   Church** in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops   against other bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their   confreres (other priests). **Churches and altars will be sacked.**   The Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many   priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord." 

 "The demon will be especially implacable against the souls consecrated to   God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase   in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them." 

 ". . . Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able still to   save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will   be saved."

[
    ](http://www.theworkofgod.org/Aparitns/Aparitns.htm) April, 1984 - Most Rev. John Shojiro Ito, Bishop of Niigata, Japan, after years of extensive investigation, declares the events of Akita, Japan, to be of supernatural origin, and authorises throughout the entire diocese the veneration of the Holy Mother of Akita. He said: “The message of Akita is the message of Fatima.”
    June, 1988 - Vatican City - Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, gives definitive judgement on the Akita events and messages as reliable and worthy of belief.
 
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FightingFat:
This topic was the centre of a debate on Radio 2’s Jeremy Vine program today. I have to say, it really suprised me that people would feel like that! Seems like elementary theology to me and contradicts my understanding of God to ‘blame’ him for human suffering.

On the program, there was a Hindu a Muslim and a Christian. The Christian was rubbish! My dog Barney would have given a better account of the Christian faith! The Muslim was all…Muslim (God sees us suffer and will reward us for our suffering) and as usual I found myself allied with the Hindu chap who was utterly brilliant and made a great deal of sense!
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It’s not blaming God, it’s more like blaming ourselves (the human race) for living the lives that we do. Society as a whole is not good right now. At least not in my oppinion. People don’t have any moral values. The world is corrupt. Money, power, and sex is all people want and strive for. God is no where in that equation.

I just don’t understand why people can’t believe that God would teach us in these ways. If anyone has read and believes in the bible they would know that this is very possible. We don’t have a right to say it definatly was him, but we also don’t have a right to say that it definatly wasn’t either.
 
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anjel13:
I just don’t understand why people can’t believe that God would teach us in these ways. If anyone has read and believes in the bible they would know that this is very possible. We don’t have a right to say it definatly was him, but we also don’t have a right to say that it definatly wasn’t either.
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I just see it as superstitious nonsense. Does show us how fragile our ‘civilization’ is though doesn’t it?
 
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FightingFat:
I just see it as superstitious nonsense. Does show us how fragile our ‘civilization’ is though doesn’t it?
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I guess God is superstitious?
 
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FightingFat:
I just see it as superstitious nonsense. Does show us how fragile our ‘civilization’ is though doesn’t it?
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So I’m guessing you don’t believe that what the Bible says is true? All of that stuff is just “supersticious nonsense”, just stories, nothing more. If that’s the case, then there would be no reason for me to debate with you because we’re on a completly different wave length.
 
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anjel13:
So I’m guessing you don’t believe that what the Bible says is true? All of that stuff is just “supersticious nonsense”, just stories, nothing more. If that’s the case, then there would be no reason for me to debate with you because we’re on a completly different wave length.
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No need to be presumptious. God has made a New Covenant with his people.
I think that thinking of God as someone dolling out fire and brimstone and smiting people who annoy him is the wrong idea- anyway, it doesn’t even hold water as an argument does it? Not saying he couldn’t if he wanted to, or that he hasn’t in the past. Just it interfers with the whole idea of choice and free will does it not?
 
our way of thinking is not God’s way of thinking…Thank God!
 
The Divine and suffering
PORTSTEWART, Northern Ireland * — * Throughout the United Kingdom, following the Christmas tsunami that killed at least 150,000 people and changed the lives of their surviving relatives forever, some are asking how a “loving” G-d, if He exists, could allow such a catastrophe to happen. Another question is, “Why do bad things happen to good people?”

The questions are mostly rhetorical, since by asking them, the questioners don’t actually expect, or even desire, an answer. They are asked in an accusatory way, as if the questions themselves indict, try and convict as fools those who believe in G-d.

One counterquestion should be: Why do good things happen to bad people? The Scriptures say, “Only G-d is good.”

What about a “good G-d” allowing bad things? Death is the destination of all living organisms. Some die sooner than others. Shouldn’t a “good G-d” provide a way to escape the grave? He has, but that requires faith, which critics and skeptics lack.

Here’s another question for those who ask the other questions: If catastrophe proves there is no G-d, does charity prove He exists? Individuals in Britain have contributed millions of pounds to the tsunami survivors, more than their government. Most of the world’s charities helping in the effort are Christian and American.

Indonesia is the world’s largest Muslim nation, yet Muslim nations, including the fabulously wealthy Saudi regime, have given chump change compared to those countries with majority Christian populations. Don’t expect Christians, or Americans, to gain points with those who believe America is the “Great Satan.”

Human tragedy is bad enough, but listening to some theologians trying to explain it is doubly irritating… Theologians should offer hope and truth. The pagans serve up enough doubt."

Rather than attempt to bring mankind up to G-d’s level, many skeptics try to bring G-d down to man’s level, remaking Him in a human image and thus encouraging the false view that G-d is someone who is supposed to make us happy and prosperous. If we are unhappy and not rich (or not rich enough), we will deny He exists. Prosperity and good health provide their own motives for unbelief, as C.S. Lewis and numerous other thinkers have eloquently written.

"… Clergymen were interviewed, but none offered more than empty platitudes. What good are the clergy if this is the best they can do? Why are they drawing salaries paid by parishioners who might properly expect, even demand, more?

Let me, a nontheologian, offer some help to the skeptics. In Job, Chapter 1, Job suffers a catastrophe when G-d allows Satan to take away his children and worldly goods to test his faith. Job makes two statements that ought to be remembered and repeated in times like these. The first is, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. May the name of the Lord be praised.” Job also says in response to his skeptical and nagging wife, “Shall we accept good from G-d and not trouble?”

If you prefer a secular source, consider Abraham Lincoln’s second inaugural address. Seeking to understand the Civil War catastrophe, Lincoln concluded, “The Almighty has His own purposes.”

Those are answers (and questions) that resonate far better than the pap coming from the skeptics and certain theologians who have their degrees, but seem to know less about G-d and His nature than what causes an undersea earthquake.

jewishworldreview.com/cols/thomas1.asp
 
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BenRosa:
Why can’t this author spell-out the word God?
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Because he is Cal Thomas and is writing for the Jewish World Review. Jews do not utter the name of God.
 
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Marie:
I agree with Michael, It is not Catholic Thinking. Certainly not Catholic thinking according to the church.

My town was devastated in May 2003. We had a Tornado which tore through our burb and went on to take out 10 sq miles. We lost a couple of lives, and many homes.

The people who died were not evil people. Quite the contrary, as those who knew them would attest. One of them was and elderly man just returning home from Mass. That stood out in our minds. Our parish had just let out from a big First Communion afternoon mass and reception. The parking lot had cleared just before it hit. None of the 300 plus souls were hurt. The parking lot was smacked hard by the Tornado and we would have had pure carnage had the people been there still. We considered that great grace, but in no way, some marker that God spared them just because they were good.

When you live through such a sudden and violent event, you are not about to go out and judge the guy who died as less worthy to live than yourself…let me tell you. :eek:
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Maybe “God hates” Mass-goers.​

Which is an idiotic suggestion. But a reasonably popular one for all that.
  1. But no more so than seeing natural disasters as punishments of those of whose theology or manner of life the onlooker happens not to approve.
2.* If there is nothing obviously wrong, there must be some secret sin needing punishment* - otherwise people would not suffer.
  1. Alternatively, one could always argue that the reason that the USA has so far done so very well for itself, is that God has something really choice in store of it - such as drowning the whole of the USA; but not Mexico or the nations to the South. So success in past & present can also be seen as proof of a forthcoming, and terrible, punishment.
Human ingenuity is tireless in finding things of which to accuse others - which is a very sad reflection on human nature. What we do know, for sure, is that people have suffered - and that, is what we should be bothering with; not with alleged wrongdoing by people whom none of us even know. ##
 
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FightingFat:
I just see it as superstitious nonsense. Does show us how fragile our ‘civilization’ is though doesn’t it?
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Yes, it is fragile. We are not in control of it, but we can pray.

Soooo, is everyone up for a one, two, three punch this weekend? :eek:

Three storms threaten to strike U.S. at once

A very similar weather Model we had in May of 2003. I’m praying, anyone else?
WASHINGTON — Moisture-laden storms from the north, west and south are likely to converge on much of America over the next several days in what could be a once-in-a-generation onslaught, meteorologists forecast yesterday.
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If the gloomy computer models at the U.S. Climate Prediction Center are right, we’ll see this terrible trio:
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• The “Pineapple Express,” a series of warm, wet storms heading east from Hawaii, drenching Southern California and the far Southwest, already beset with heavy rain and snow. Flooding, avalanches and mudslides are possible.
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• An “Arctic Express,” a mass of cold air chugging south from Alaska and Canada, bringing frigid air and potentially heavy snow and ice to the usually mild-wintered Pacific Northwest.
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• An unnamed warm, moist storm system from the Gulf of Mexico drenching the already-saturated Ohio, Tennessee and Mississippi valleys. Expect heavy river flooding and springlike tornadoes.
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Gottle of Geer said:
## Maybe “God hates” Mass-goers.

Which is an idiotic suggestion. But a reasonably popular one for all that.
  1. But no more so than seeing natural disasters as punishments of those of whose theology or manner of life the onlooker happens not to approve.
2.* If there is nothing obviously wrong, there must be some secret sin needing punishment* - otherwise people would not suffer.
  1. Alternatively, one could always argue that the reason that the USA has so far done so very well for itself, is that God has something really choice in store of it - such as drowning the whole of the USA; but not Mexico or the nations to the South. So success in past & present can also be seen as proof of a forthcoming, and terrible, punishment.
Human ingenuity is tireless in finding things of which to accuse others - which is a very sad reflection on human nature. What we do know, for sure, is that people have suffered - and that, is what we should be bothering with; not with alleged wrongdoing by people whom none of us even know. ##
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Yes, Gottle, those posters who say that this tsunami is God punishing these nations or these people are beyond my comprehension. Isn’t it enough to see many good people die in accidents, at young ages from illness, etc. to know that here on this earth the evil aren’t necessarily punished by God and that the good don’t necessarily prosper?
 
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bapcathluth:
Yes, Gottle, those posters who say that this tsunami is God punishing these nations or these people are beyond my comprehension. Isn’t it enough to see many good people die in accidents, at young ages from illness, etc. to know that here on this earth the evil aren’t necessarily punished by God and that the good don’t necessarily prosper?
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I do not think many are saying it is absolutely certain God is punishing anyone. What some are saying is that we can’t say for certain it is not a punishment.
 
Discloser: The following is my own ideas on the mater. None of it is from a theological source and I have little to no knowledge of the theology of this issue.

In most of the arguments back and forth it seems the paradigm is of a zero sum game. Or, at the very least that there are losers from this tsunami. Consider the possibility that God does not have finite power. To me this means that God has the ability to mold the world and all events for the benefit and good of ALL individuals personally.

This allows for the benefits to individuals that might include: Created new or improved relationships resulting from emergency, the experience of helping others for people who might otherwise not, the strengthening of individuals and/or there families thru disabling injury, the making of saints in heaven to intercede for us, the enlightenment to survivors of the fragility of life and the potential for death without warning, the witness of the love of Christ through his people, and yes, even the benevolent chastisement for purpose of correction.

It is very hard for us to see a newly orphaned child captured into the human sex slave market. We think what could possibly be good about this? But just because we see only the suffering and cruelty does not mean that there might not be some greater good happening for this orphan even though it is not perceptible or imaginable to us. It is very hard to imagine and yet I think that it is possible for an omnipotent God to allow free will and evil and yet provide the best for each and everyone of us.

OK, Let the shooting begin.
 

Maybe it’s a mistake to try seeing any meaning in this business - simply because we do not have enough info with which to build a coherent story or reason for it. There is a lot to be said for not trying to explain things.​

 
I Posted this in a similar thread in In The News but that thread seems to have died. At the risk of killing this one, I am posting this here because I would be interested if folks think this is way off.
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JamesD:
Discloser: The following is my own ideas on the mater. None of it is from a theological source and I have little to no knowledge of the theology of this issue.

In most of the arguments back and forth it seems the paradigm is of a zero sum game. Or, at the very least that there are losers from this tsunami. Consider the possibility that God does not have finite power. To me this means that God has the ability to mold the world and all events for the benefit and good of ALL individuals personally.

This allows for the benefits to individuals that might include: Created new or improved relationships resulting from emergency, the experience of helping others for people who might otherwise not, the strengthening of individuals and/or there families thru disabling injury, the making of saints in heaven to intercede for us, the enlightenment to survivors of the fragility of life and the potential for death without warning, the witness of the love of Christ through his people, and yes, even the benevolent chastisement for purpose of correction.

It is very hard for us to see a newly orphaned child captured into the human sex slave market. We think what could possibly be good about this? But just because we see only the suffering and cruelty does not mean that there might not be some greater good happening for this orphan even though it is not perceptible or imaginable to us. It is very hard to imagine and yet I think that it is possible for an omnipotent God to allow free will and evil and yet provide the best for each and everyone of us.

OK, Let the shooting begin.
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fix:

  1. *]
    Second Message on August 3, 1973

    “My daughter, my novice, do you love the Lord? If you love the Lord listen to what I have to say to you.”

    “It is very important. You will convey it to your superior.”

    “Many men in this world afflict the Lord. I desire souls to console Him to soften the anger of the Heavenly Father. I wish, with my Son, for souls who will repair by their suffering and their poverty for the sinners and ingrates.”

    “In order that the world might know His anger, the Heavenly Father is preparing to inflict a great chastisement on all mankind. With my Son, I have intervened so many times to appease the wrath of the Father. I have prevented the coming of calamities by offering Him the sufferings of the Son on the Cross, His Precious Blood, and beloved souls who console Him and form a cohort of victim souls. Prayer, penance and courageous sacrifices can soften the Father’s anger. I desire this also from your community, that it love poverty, that it sanctify itself and pray in reparation for the ingratitude and outrages of so many men. Recite the prayer of the Handmaids of the Eucharist with awareness of its meaning: put it into practice: offer (whatever God may send) in reparation for sins. Let each one endeavour, according to capacity and position, to offer herself entirely to the Lord.”

    “Even in a secular institute prayer is necessary. Already souls who wish to pray are on the way to being gathered. Without attaching too much attention to the form, be faithful and fervent in prayer to console the Master.”

    1. *]
      Third and the Last message on October 13, 1973:

      “. . . if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by my Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and the priests.”

      “The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against other bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres (other priests). Churches and altars will be sacked. The Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.”

      “The demon will be especially implacable against the souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them.”

      “. . . Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able still to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved.”

      http://www.theworkofgod.org/Aparitns/Aparitns.htm
      April, 1984 - Most Rev. John Shojiro Ito, Bishop of Niigata, Japan, after years of extensive investigation, declares the events of Akita, Japan, to be of supernatural origin, and authorises throughout the entire diocese the veneration of the Holy Mother of Akita. He said: “The message of Akita is the message of Fatima.”

      June, 1988 - Vatican City - Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, gives definitive judgement on the Akita events and messages as reliable and worthy of belief.
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