The two thieves at Jesus’s crucifixion

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1 Peter 1:7 “ These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.”

Doubts and human reasoning may disagree…I chose faith. Peace, brother ✌️ Have a good day
 
I’d further point out about the dead coming out of the graves and the darkness…it’s only in Matthew. I would expect something so miraculous would be mentioned by more than just one of them.

Christians are taught to read the scriptures as a whole. They blend the stories…basically creating a fifth gospel by doing so. I learned to study the Bible by letting each author tell his own story. Secular scholars show that Mark was written first. Matthew and Luke copied extensively from Mark. Where they don’t copy, they often tell stories similar to each other but in completely different places…and they make changes. The changes can be a clue to where they disagreed with Mark. John is completely different from the Synoptics. Sometimes it seems he’s contradicting an earlier story but also, his Jesus is large and in charge. It’s in John where Jesus is God, not just the Messiah.

Studying the Bible this way is very different than the usual way that Christians study the Bible and I don’t blame Christians for not liking it or agreeing with it. It’s much more challenging to ones faith. It’s often what one author says that others don’t that causes so much confusion. Did Jesus really say I Am and the others didn’t find that statement to be important? I and the Father are One?

I’m really not trying to be critical. I’m just trying to explain that often non believers have excellent reasons for dismissing biblical evidence. The gospels are stories written for believers, about believers and by believers. They aren’t disinterested history reports nor are they trying to be. For believers, it’s stories about your God. To outsiders, it’s Jesus propaganda…and it’s often unbelievable!
 
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EndTimes said:
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Michaelangelo:
When you answer my question I will answer you. Until then, nope!
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Looks like I’ve gots you on the run, M…

cc: M
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You made a claim. I asked for verification of that claim. You dodged my question. I repeated the question three or four times and you continued to dodge that direct question. Why should I bother then? So no, I’m not on the run from you. I’m simply ignoring you as you ignore me. Even Steven!
 
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Michaelangelo said:
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EndTimes:
cc: M
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You made a claim. I asked for verification of that claim. You dodged my question. I
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I haven’t dodged a thing…

You demand Signs for Faith and I let you know - No! - Signs can never lead you to Faith.

I’ll look up something in Scriptures which speak of that problem…
 
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EndTimes said:
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Michaelangelo:
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EndTimes:
cc: M
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You made a claim. I asked for verification of that claim. You dodged my question. I
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I haven’t dodged a thing…
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Then it would be easy to prove me wrong. Wouldn’t it? Just check the history of this thread and see if I have repeated the same question three or four times with you directely ignoring that question in the following reponse. Prove me a liar. Here is your chance.
 
EndTimes said:
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Michaelangelo:
Then it would be easy to prove me wrong. Wouldn’t it?
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I’ve not been attempting to prove you wrong… You are wrong…
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But wait. You really can’t go looking for proof either. Because then you would be like me, demanding empirical evidence… Oh my what a predicament 🤭
 
Michaelangelo said:
But wait. You really can’t go looking for proof either.
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It’s your faulty logic which ties you up

I’m not looking for proof… I’m not claiming you’re a liar…

Existence of Actualities are not dependent upon proof for their Existences…

Do you agree with that latter sentence?

_
 
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When you stop ignoring my direct question I will stop ignoring you… 🥱
 
christismylord said:
1 Peter 1:7 “ These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.”

Doubts and human reasoning may disagree…I chose faith. Peace, brother ✌️ Have a good day
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I fail to see the point in quoting a part of a book from a collection of books I don’t see as authoritative at all, as a response. But perhaps you can shed some light on your train of thought here? :confused:
 
I was well into my novitiate when my analytical side refused to stay dormant. Then one thing led to another, and here I am. 😅
 
EndTimes said:
No! - Signs can never lead you to Faith
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Doesn’t John claim the opposite? His tales of Jesus giving signs are all about getting others to believe, correct? Otherwise, why did Jesus give signs?

Sorry, I’m now very confused…
 
Pattylt said:
Otherwise, why did Jesus give signs?
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When Jesus forgave a cripple in the presence of Pharisees -
then they condemned him for Blasphemy which called for and led to His death

So To prove THEM that He indeedc has the power to Forgive -
He healed the man… and said to them. .
What’s easier to say? You are Forgiven? Or take up your bed and walk!
Did those Signs lead the Jewish Leadership to Faith? NO!

Afterwards - from some… the demand for Signs never ended
So He promised them they’ll receive the Sign of Jonah for their stubborn resistance to Faith
3 days and them Resurrection - which led to Billions of Humans becoming Christians vis the Gospel

Some Jews who worked furiously againsgt the Gospel - continued to demand Signs…

And to them is is said - yes in John

Belief and Unbelief Among the Jews ]
Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence,
they still would not believe in him.)

Jews demand signs

FAITH - never understood - which Leads to God and Salvation - remains the Gulf = even to this day
 
@EndTimes, love your faith and insight! Faith is a gift from God, not based on our own intellectual consent to His miracles, but of the Holy Spirit testifying to us that He is who He says He is. We should not demand signs, but receive the Kingdom of God like little children with trust. And the Father draws us to Christ through the Holy Spirit, for those He predestined, He also called. (And those He called He also justified, and those He justified, He also glorified 😉)

However, I do think the purposes of His miracles are vast. Jesus is infinitely merciful and compassionate and wanted to heal people out of love, and He also wanted to show that He has the authority to forgive sins (in the case of the man with the mat, like you said!) and use the miracles to teach lessons (like when He made the fig tree wither) and to prove that the Father is in Him, and possibly to increase the faith of the apostles and all His flock. For in John 10:38, it says

“But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

And in Luke 17:20-23, “ When the men came to Him, they said, “John the Baptist has sent us to You, to ask, ‘Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?’” At that very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He gave sight to many who were blind. And He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have the gospel preached to them. Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”

It seems as though He was showing that by His miracles, it affirmed that He is who He says He is. Do you think He also may have done the miracles to strengthen their faith, along with many other reasons? We certainly should not demand more signs than the sign of Jonah now, though, because we have trustworthy testimonies telling us of all He did.
 
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christismylord said:
It seems as though He was showing that by His miracles, it affirmed that He is who He says He is. Do you think He also may have done the miracles to strengthen their faith, along with many other reasons? We certainly should not demand more signs than the sign of Jonah now, though, because we have trustworthy testimonies telling us of all He did.
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Of this I agree and often say…

Yes … curing … is real and symbolic including temporary (for our body dies) in many ways …

So WHY didn’t the Jewish Leadership accept/have FAITH IN HE
whom they were so-called Experts on: Prophecy and Scriptures (OT) ?

However, yes – re: Signs . Apparently - there came a time when enough was too much.

From God - Genuine FAITH always requires an actual full letting go of so-called Proof…

Note: I didn’t say evidences… I said Proof!

Fact Is … Jesus Himself re: God - His Words and Actions - were immense Evidencial Proof…

Those at the Sermon on the Mount believed in the very Power of His Words…
Which includes the Power of Love …

Blessed too are those who’ve never ‘seen’ yet still Obey

But when some ongoingly demand science-smelling ‘empirical evidence’
the sense of a genuine seeking - tends to evaporate…

_
 
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EndTimes said:
But when some ongoingly demand science-smelling ‘empirical evidence’
the sense of a genuine seeking - tends to evaporate…
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I think you are dismissing many genuine seekers that have tried and failed to have faith. I tried for years to hold on to any shred of faith. It was terrible and gut wrenching. Then, to dismissed as science-smellers looking for empirical evidence when you have no clue what their journey was like?

I personally, have never demanded signs or a miracle. I don’t even demand empirical evidence. I want the experience that so many others have claimed…to feel God, to sense He’s there, an experience of the divine…something! I got very tired of being blamed for not having this. Nope, not going to take the blame anymore. Sorry. There are certain people that God just doesn’t want for some reason…or He’s just not there. No other explanation makes sense to me.
 
EndTimes said:
So WHY didn’t the Jewish Leadership accept/have FAITH IN HE
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John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

They had hardened their hearts to God, and they would rather kill Jesus than admit their fault and have to change all of their ways.
EndTimes said:
From God - Genuine FAITH always requires an actual full letting go of so-called Proof…
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Yes, faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit, not based on “proof,” but on us letting go of our desire to understand and control everything, and falling into the loving arms of our Savior and trusting like a child. Turning to Him without demanding proof, and letting our Shepherd lead us without questioning, but knowing that He is good and faithful. He has already provided us with more than enough evidence in His Word.

As Proverbs 3:5 says, “Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding” 😃👍
 
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