The two witnesses?

[Contrabass101]

Who are the two witnesses in Rev. 11?

I’ve heard Moses and Elijah, and I’ve heard the Church, but I don’t see why Moses and Elijah would be coming back (nowhere else in Scripture), and I don’t see why there are two witnesses, if they are to symbolize the church.

Is Scripture and tradition a fair bet? Or perhaps the Magisterium?

I’ve heard some of Hahn’s radio boradcasts, and I find them very enlightening, yet they are more topic oriented, and I haven’t heard him say anything about this chapter (yet).

• CB

Here is the chapter:

Then a measuring rod like a staff was given to me, and I was told, “Get up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and the ones who worship there. 11:2 But do not measure the outer courtyard of the temple; leave it out, because it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample on the holy city for forty-two months. 11:3 And I will grant my two witnesses authority to prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth. 11:4 (These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.) 11:5 If anyone wants to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and completely consumes their enemies. If anyone wants to harm them, they must be killed this way. 11:6 These two have the power to close up the sky so that it does not rain during the time they are prophesying. They have power to turn the waters to blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague whenever they want. 11:7 When they have completed their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss will make war on them and conquer them and kill them. 11:8 Their corpses will lie in the street of the great city that is symbolically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was also crucified. 11:9 For three and a half days those from every people, tribe, nation, and language will look at their corpses, because they will not permit them to be placed in a tomb. 11:10 And those who live on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate, even sending gifts to each other, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth. 11:11 But after three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and tremendous fear seized those who were watching them. 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them: “Come up here!” So the two prophets went up to heaven in a cloud while their enemies stared at them. 11:13 Just then a major earthquake took place and a tenth of the city collapsed; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

11:14 The second woe has come and gone; the third is coming quickly.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I heard Enoch and Elijah because neither of them died and both were taken up to Heaven.

 

[blessedstar]

The two witnesses of the Gospel, the main two were St Peter (to the Jews) and St Paul (to the Gentiles) and I personally believe it will be these two who will witness at the close of the age.

 

[lak611]

Here’s what the Haydock Commentary has to say.

Ver. 3. My two witnesses…shall prophesy twelve hundred and sixty days. It is a very common interpretation, that by these two witnesses must be understood Henoch [Enoch] and Elias [Elijah], who are to come before the end of the world. It is true this is what we read in several of the ancient Fathers, insomuch, that Dr. Wells, in his paraphrase, calls it the “consent of the primitive fathers,” and in his notes says, it is of “unexceptionable authority.” This opinion (at least as to Elias) is grounded on those words of the prophet Malachy [Malachias/Malachi], (Chap. iv. 5.) behold, I will send you Elias, the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord; and also on the words of our Saviour, Christ, (Matthew xvii. 11.) where he tells his disciples: Elias indeed shall come, and restore all things. But I cannot say that the consent of the fathers is so unanimous as to Henoch: for we find by St. Hilary, that some thought Jeremy [Jeremias/Jeremiah] was to come with Elias, and he himself thought that with Elias would come Moses. See his commentary on Matt. p. 710, Nov. edit. Secondly, allowing it a received opinion that Henoch and Elias are again to come before the day of judgment, yet it is not the constant doctrine of the ancient fathers, that by these two witnesses in this place of the Apocalypse, must be understood Henoch and Elias. St. Cyprian expounds it of two sorts of martyrs for the Catholic faith; to wit, they who suffer death, and others who only suffered imprisonment, loss of goods, and the like. Others expound it of the testimonies concerning Christ and his Church, of which some are in the Old Testament, some in the New. To these we must join all those interpreters who expound all the visions and predictions in the Apocalypse, till the 20th chapter, of the persecutions raised by the Jews: or by the heathens against the Church, which have already happened. Of these, both as to ancient fathers and later interpreters, see Alcazar in his Prologomena, note 6, p. 33, and note 12, p. 48. (Witham) — Two witnesses. It is commonly understood of Henoch and Elias. (Challoner)

 

[Zenas]

I believe the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. They were with Christ at the transfiguration so there is reason to believe these two could play a role in the plan of man’s ultimate redemption.

 

[Jesus1]

From what I’ve read, at least one of them is Elijah. It is interesting that in the Bible, doesn’t it say that St. John the Baptist had the spirit of Elijah, to bring children back to their fathers?

 

[blessedstar]

I don’t think it can strictly be said that because those who have not died but assumed up into heaven means they will be the two witnesses.

Lazarus died and Jesus raised him up again and Lazarus lived again with Martha and Mary. Lazarus must have died again and then went to Heaven. Lazarus died and was raised to life again in the days before Jesus died before He headed up to Jerusalem and so it will be with the two prophets before the end of the age, the final passion of the world. It was the same with the young girl, she had died and Jesus raised her again and she got up and had something to eat, she lived with her parents and presumably died again much later and rose again to life in Jesus in Heaven.

So it is possible if God so wills it for a soul to have two deaths and live again. Therefore it is not unreasonable to think that the two witnesses of the Gospel, St Peter and St Paul would witness to it in the end times, die and be raised again as it was with Lazarus.

In Jesus there is no death, only life and so though they die they live

 

[lanceg]

I believe the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. They were with Christ at the transfiguration so there is reason to believe these two could play a role in the plan of man’s ultimate redemption.

I agree, plus they represent the Law & Prophets, as they did at the Transfiguration. The Law and Prophets witness to Christ, which is precisely why they are called witnessess in the Apocalypse (see also John 5:39 and Luke 16:29).

 

[Nita]

Who are the two witnesses in Rev. 11?

I’ve heard Moses and Elijah, and I’ve heard the Church, but I don’t see why Moses and Elijah would be coming back (nowhere else in Scripture), and I don’t see why there are two witnesses, if they are to symbolize the church.

 

[lanceg]

If the “two witnesses” refers to the Church - which is very possible considering an earlier verse in Revelation (see below) - it could be a reference to the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. I believe Pope John Paul II referred to them as the “two lungs” of the Church. Both have a valid priesthood, 7 valid sacraments, and offer the valid Sacrifice of the Mass - a full witness in the world of the redemption accomplished by Our Lord.

 

[Nita]

Nita;2583907:

Nita, I really like this interpretation you offer here, but it is probably an unlikely one. I hope you are right though, I hope our churches shine when it counts, and that we give good witness to Christ.

More than likely, if not real individual persons, the “witnesses” represent the Law & Prophets…

Blessings,

Lance

Hi Lance,

I don’t think the Church application is the only application.
Personally, in addition to more general applications (such as Church, Law & Prophets), I think it can apply to individuals - probably various individuals over the lifetime of the Church. For example: in our era, I used to wonder if they referred to Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa. Many rejoiced at their passing (Rev 11:10), but God breathed a “breath of life” (vs 11) again into the Church and gave us Pope Benedict XVI.

Nita

 

[spauline]

Who are the two witnesses in Rev. 11?

Is Scripture and tradition a fair bet? Or perhaps the Magisterium?

Here is the chapter:

Absolutely, and that is probably the primary meaning. For what are the ultimate witnesses to the truths of God except the Oral Word and the Written Word. I have several essays on my site that take this middle of the road approach and go with it. For example, take this verse:

“And if any man will harm them, in this manner must he be harmed”. Out of all possible ways to interpret the Two Witnesses, the one that applies this statement in a spiritual sense to the Word Of God in general (as Oral and Wiritten) is the most important and meaningful!

For yes, God protected STS. Peter and Paul up to a point physiclaly when persons tried to kill them. And I suppose, as the futurist ssuggest that people will literally try to kill two men, like Moses and Elijah, and yet be unable. But in the end, so what?

For which is more important, to be protected from physical harm and deflect it back, or be SPIRITUALLY harmed intrinsically by the precise degree and manner with which one rejects one or more doctrines that come from the mouth of God through Scripture and Tradition.

And FYI, in this layer of meaning, we are in the three and a half days, where they lie dead, ignored, as the modern world celebrates that it no longer is tortured by religion.

Anyway, here’s some links of my stuff that expands this:

Two Witnesses

Two Witnesses

Two Witnesses

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Enoch was the seventh generation from Adam and walked and talke with God 365 years.

The perfect numbers alone and the fact that “he was not” after a short amount of years instead of living a long time as the other patriarchs did are dead give aways that he will be one of the two witnesses.

 

[ryanoneil]

In David B. Currie’s book “Rapture” he shows that in the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. nearly all of the Book of Revelation has taken place less Christ’s second coming. At the same time Revelation can be a prophesy of a still future event. (second coming) Here are a couple ideas from his book.

The two witnesses are symbols for the Law and the Prophets. Moses and Elijah personify this. Remember John specifically points out the allegorical nature of his language in this vision 11:8

As long as the Temple stood, the Mosaic system gave voice to the Law and the Prophets. They witnessed against the paganism of both the Romans and the unfaithful Jews. The Law and the Prophets were killed by the beast when biblical Judaism was destroyed forever by the Roman army in 70 A.D.

The Law and the Prophets came back to life. They continue to proclaim their message within the heavenly city of the New Jerusalem, which is the Church. God’s new covenant was beyond the reach of armies. They “went up to Heaven in a cloud”
(11:12)

 

[spauline]

In David B. Currie’s book “Rapture” he shows that in the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. nearly all of the Book of Revelation has taken place less Christ’s second coming. At the same time Revelation can be a prophesy of a still future event. (second coming) Here are a couple ideas from his book.

The two witnesses are symbols for the Law and the Prophets. Moses and Elijah personify this. Remember John specifically points out the allegorical nature of his language in this vision 11:8

As long as the Temple stood, the Mosaic system gave voice to the Law and the Prophets. They witnessed against the paganism of both the Romans and the unfaithful Jews. The Law and the Prophets were killed by the beast when biblical Judaism was destroyed forever by the Roman army in 70 A.D.

The Law and the Prophets came back to life. They continue to proclaim their message within the heavenly city of the New Jerusalem, which is the Church. God’s new covenant was beyond the reach of armies. They “went up to Heaven in a cloud”
(11:12)

That is a beautiful interpretation. Never heard that before. The beauty of Scripture, layers of meaning for some many instances and times. Thank you for sharing, ryanoneil.

 

[Phoenix]

Dear sisters and brothers in the faith

This is my very first posting.
In some of the revelations to Mrs. Vassula - one of the most prodigious mediums nowadays - the Two Witnesses were revealed to be Jesus and Mary.

Look yourself in www.vassula.org or www.tlig.org and make use of its search engine.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The two witnesses will preach and will convert the gentiles and the Jews.

Moses won’t be one of them because he is more connected with law than prophecy.

Elijah will convert the Jews and Enoch will convert the gentiles from one ende ot the Earth to another.

There is singnificance in Enoch living 365 years and the year being 365 days long!

 

[NotWorthy]

The two witnesses will preach and will convert the gentiles and the Jews.

Moses won’t be one of them because he is more connected with law than prophecy.

Moses was not considered a prophet? The Samaritans were looking for a prophet like Moses to be the Messiah.

Elijah will convert the Jews and Enoch will convert the gentiles from one ende ot the Earth to another.

There is singnificance in Enoch living 365 years and the year being 365 days long!

Yeah, I call it a big coincidence.

 

[ryanoneil]

The two witnesses will preach and will convert the gentiles and the Jews.

Moses won’t be one of them because he is more connected with law than prophecy.

Are you familiar with the Parallel between the books of Daniel and Revelation. Daniel 7:25 tells us the little horn, would make war on the times and the law. The times and the law are the parallel of the two witnesses in Revelation. Moses gave Israel the Law, and Elijah was the epitome of God’s prophet.

There is also forshadowing symbolism in Zechariah 4, where Joshua the priest and Zerubbabel the ruler (law) are described in a similair fashion.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Jerry-Jet]

So tell me people–why is it that many of the early church fathers thought it would be Elijah and Enoch instead of Elijah and Moses!

Where they mistaken?