The U.S federal government should ban licensed professionals from practicing ex gay “therapy” on minors

[carn]

People can claim that the American Psychological Association is ideologically infiltrated and pressured all they want.

…

The consistently methodologically valid APA have validly concluded that there are several methodological problems with the studies that claim ex gay “therapy” changed people’s perceived sexual orientation.

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that is not supported by valid scientific evidence.

You seem to base your argument upon the claim that in the field of psychology valid scientific evidence exists in some way and that the ACA or a relevant part of its members are actually capable of finding such valid scientific evidence.

I consider both claims to be false. Reason is, that psychology is too moldable both deliberately and unconsciously that reliable scientific evidence can be generated too anything beyond a minuscle extent.

Note: I do not claim that ACA is ideologically infiltrated or that other organizations aren’t; i just claim that >95% of output cannot be considered to be based upon valid scientific evidence.

 

[bobballen_18]

Well then I suppose most reparative therapists like Nicolosi are bad therapists

That’s just your opinion though; what about their clients’ opinions? Are you making the claim that every single person who claims to have been helped by such therapists was either forced to give their positive testimony, or that they are outright lying?

Ones like the ones who work for NARTH which helps license them.

OK, and so my overall question to you is, do you believe that homosexuality is an inborn part of a person, a part of a person’s identity? Or perhaps the real question is, do you believe that the nature of homosexuality is such that someone with it has absolutely no hope of change (aside from perhaps Divine Intervention)?

 

[bobballen_18]

More to the point of the OP:

Right now I am reading a book by Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality. Tonight, in a chapter where he was describing treatment of SSA, there was a section titled “Factors Affecting Prognosis”, and he brings up age. He does mention that treatment before the early twenties has particular difficulties. This book was written in 1991, so I don’t know what his experiences with adolescents have been since then, but this is a quote:

My only successful treatment with an adolescent was a 17-year-old whose outstanding advantage was an enthusiastically supportive family and social network, with every significant person in his life committed to helping him change his life direction.

Then, questions can arise such as “how does he define successful” or “what are the lives of the unsuccessful ones like now” or something like that, and those would be good questions to discuss.

This particular quote by him was preceded by mentioning the fact that since the sexual drive is at its strongest in the adolescent years, and because of this, he says:

Although he may later have a change of heart, to propose a treatment requiring self-reflection, conviction, and self-denial is almost more than he can bear.

In any case, from that first quote I provided, he seems to suggest that treatment of minors is only going to be successful if he has a wide network of support, particularly support for and faith in the therapy. Which is awfully hard today, with the prevalence of anti-reparative therapy attitudes and in general the social support for same-sex relationships and unions.

Anyway, I thought I might throw that out there - I thought of this thread as soon as I read that section! It seems to me that even in light of his (lack of) experience (as of 1991) with the success of treating adolescents, there should not be an outright ban on reparative therapy for minors - rather, increased education for all would be great, including education on reparative therapy, including both its successes and failures, and what is more likely to make such therapy succeed or fail, etc.

 

[at9009]

More to the point of the OP:
Anyway, I thought I might throw that out there - I thought of this thread as soon as I read that section! It seems to me that even in light of his (lack of) experience (as of 1991) with the success of treating adolescents, there should not be an outright ban on reparative therapy for minors - rather, increased education for all would be great, including education on reparative therapy, including both its successes and failures, and what is more likely to make such therapy succeed or fail, etc.

I don’t like the idea of reparative therapy with a explicit goal of changing sexual orientation. However, if one has particular wounds that require physiological healing then definitely go and treat that pain. If that healing leads to a reduction or elimination of one’s SSA then great. If it doesn’t, it’s not a big deal because other issues have been addressed which gives that particular person develop better coping mechanisms and live a better overall life.

The jaded part of me sees the world going to both extremes and doubts there will be ever be any resolution or cooperation. One wants to validate SSA sexual relationships as morally good while the other basically wants to shame the person with SSA (regardless of chastity especially in some ultra-right religious culture) as lacking faith, maturity, and not to mention other sweeping generalizations. Regardless each side wants to use my life narrative for their gain. It often feels like both sides are more interested in using me as a tool to prove their particular viewpoint than actually seeing me as a person. So I tend to avoid both groups, but like I said I feel pretty jaded in this regard.

Honestly, I’d rather trust God and see where He takes me. Will this cross remain or not… only God knows. Regardless, I can continue to strive for sanctification and follow His Will for me. Just my two cents.

 

[bobballen_18]

I don’t like the idea of reparative therapy with a explicit goal of changing sexual orientation. However, if one has particular wounds that require physiological healing then definitely go and treat that pain. If that healing leads to a reduction or elimination of one’s SSA then great. If it doesn’t, it’s not a big deal because other issues have been addressed which gives that particular person develop better coping mechanisms and live a better overall life.

Ah, here we go! See, in my opinion, what you outlined above is a big part of what good reparative therapy tries to do. I would argue that though many SSA individuals who begin reparative therapy are motivated by some sort of desire and/or hope to diminish or eliminate their SSA, the actual focus of it once it begins is not one’s sexuality/sexual attractions and trying to “cure” SSA. I think supporters of RT would argue that SSA only exists in an individual because of “particular wounds that require psychological (I think that is what you meant, not physiological?) healing”, and that for many people, when these wounds are addressed and worked through over time, reduction or elimination of SSA follows.

Good reparative therapy does not claim to change one’s sexual orientation. As far as I can tell, what it claims to do is address emotional wounds which could possibly lead to reducing SSA. And good reparative therapy does exactly what you closed that paragraph with: even if one’s SSA is not diminished or eliminated (which should never be guaranteed in the first place), the individual has addressed important things about his past and has been given an opportunity to “develop better coping mechanisms and live a better overall life”, as you put it.

So again, in short, what you outlined above is what good reparative therapy will do! The key/difficunt thing is to find it, of course.

Honestly, I’d rather trust God and see where He takes me. Will this cross remain or not… only God knows. Regardless, I can continue to strive for sanctification and follow His Will for me. Just my two cents.

Oh absolutely, at9009, trust in God and knowledge that He is in control and knows what is best for us cannot be neglected, nor can spiritual direction and reception of the sacraments. I believe that there is also a spiritual element to SSA that should be addressed. In my opinion though, this is in no way at odds with pursuing reparative therapy; in fact, good reparative therapy should aid the spiritual aspect of it.

I hope I am making sense.

 

[Trident_H]

When I looked up one site for RT it gave a pretty good walk-through of the main possible causes for SSA. Now it was clear that they were not all necessary for it to happen. It was clear that they weren’t meant as some kind of prediction. Or some kind of way of making one hat fit all heads. But it was a checklist. And if you fell into enough spots on the list they could maybe help a bit in that. They could maybe help a guy work through some of the issues.

But of course I’m sure the science there is still pretty basic. There’s still a lot more to think about there. The main thing for me is that the science does not just get shut down for political reasons.

I mean I’ve never honestly tried RT. Right now I’ve got enough other problems to deal with without putting on that hat too. So I get that I’m not really talking with any kind of authority. All I did notice was that from that checklist. From the one on the site. I was about 7 out of 10. So yeah. It made me curious. That’s about the place I’m at now. Curious. Not convinced. Not a believer in a cure. But interested in the idea. So yeah. Keep looking at it. Keep thinking about it. But don’t promise miracle cures to confused kids. I don’t think kids should get involved in that anyway. I don’t think kids are the right group to practice these types of therapies on.

Peace buddies. Hope you guys are having a smooth day at9009 and bobballen.

Your pal,

Trident

 

[bobballen_18]

When I looked up one site for RT it gave a pretty good walk-through of the main possible causes for SSA. Now it was clear that they were not all necessary for it to happen. It was clear that they weren’t meant as some kind of prediction. Or some kind of way of making one hat fit all heads. But it was a checklist. And if you fell into enough spots on the list they could maybe help a bit in that. They could maybe help a guy work through some of the issues.

But of course I’m sure the science there is still pretty basic. There’s still a lot more to think about there. The main thing for me is that the science does not just get shut down for political reasons.

I am curious, if you don’t mind, could you tell me which website you visited?

As for the quoted above, yes, I think I would agree with this approach. Reparative therapy claims that there are a number of factors in a male’s development which lead to SSA, and that if a potential patient reports noticing enough of these factors in his own life, or if he is at least willing to look into these factors, then he is a potential candidate for RT and there is potential for growth as a person which could include reduction of SSA.

Yes, totally agree that the science behind/research into RT should not get shut down, especially not for political reasons.

I mean I’ve never honestly tried RT. Right now I’ve got enough other problems to deal with without putting on that hat too. So I get that I’m not really talking with any kind of authority. All I did notice was that from that checklist. From the one on the site. I was about 7 out of 10. So yeah. It made me curious. That’s about the place I’m at now. Curious. Not convinced. Not a believer in a cure. But interested in the idea. So yeah. Keep looking at it. Keep thinking about it. But don’t promise miracle cures to confused kids. I don’t think kids should get involved in that anyway. I don’t think kids are the right group to practice these types of therapies on.

Fair enough. I’m glad it piqued your curiosity, and even if you don’t end up doing it, I hope it gets you thinking about how it relates to you! Absolutely agree one can’t be promised “miracle cures” or anything. Should only be advertised as addressing developmental issues, and how addressing these issues could lead to reduction in SSA. Regarding using RT with kids, I stand by my opinion which I stated earlier in the thread, which I think reflects Dr. Nicolosi’s thoughts - it can certainly be beneficial to minors, though they are more likely to need a wider network of support for it to be successful.

Peace buddies. Hope you guys are having a smooth day at9009 and bobballen.

Your pal,

Trident

Thanks Trident, I have enjoyed reading your posts and perspectives on this thread, and I hope you are having a smooth day as well.

 

[Trident_H]

I am curious, if you don’t mind, could you tell me which website you visited?

It was one that was recommended to me from a friend on this site. I’ll see if I can find the link.

As for the quoted above, yes, I think I would agree with this approach. Reparative therapy claims that there are a number of factors in a male’s development which lead to SSA, and that if a potential patient reports noticing enough of these factors in his own life, or if he is at least willing to look into these factors, then he is a potential candidate for RT and there is potential for growth as a person which could include reduction of SSA.

Yes, totally agree that the science behind/research into RT should not get shut down, especially not for political reasons.

Fair enough. I’m glad it piqued your curiosity, and even if you don’t end up doing it, I hope it gets you thinking about how it relates to you! Absolutely agree one can’t be promised “miracle cures” or anything. Should only be advertised as addressing developmental issues, and how addressing these issues could lead to reduction in SSA. Regarding using RT with kids, I stand by my opinion which I stated earlier in the thread, which I think reflects Dr. Nicolosi’s thoughts - it can certainly be beneficial to minors, though they are more likely to need a wider network of support for it to be successful.

Thanks Trident, I have enjoyed reading your posts and perspectives on this thread, and I hope you are having a smooth day as well.

Thanks man. Times two. And I mean I’ve been following what you’ve written too with a lot of interest. A lot.

Peace bobballen.

Your friend,

Trident