The Uncreated Qur'an

[swariffin]

Huh?

I said swarrifin is caught in a silly trap. He claims that Muslims face away from God while he believes God to be omnipresent. Rather a contradiction. A “silly trap.”

Huh? You can’t answer my question but you call me fall into a trap? What kind of logic is that. I said the Muslim face away from God and you could not answer. I believe that God is omnipresent so I don’t care to what direction I face when praying. I can even pray in the restroom if necessary. Ha…ha… sister, You are who fall into a trap, but not realizing it. And yet, calling me falling into a trap. What a silly conclusion. If you are not in a trap, why don’t you just answer my question? Stop launching incorrect statements. That will make your credibility suffer. Was it not you who call me to grow up? If I have not grown up enough, but capable of cornering you, let alone when I have grown up. Please look at the mirror and see your own picture before seeing other. Not only you fail to see the mistakes of others, you fail to see your own mistakes.

 

[swariffin]

**swariffin, in Quran Jesus is referred to as:

1. Kalimatullah,** A word from Allah.
2. Rasool Allah, The messenger of Allah,
3. Ayatullah, A sign of Allah,
4. Rehmatullah, A mercy from Allah,
5. Abudullah, A faithful servant of Allah,
6. Nabi Allah A prophet of Allah,
7. Roohullah. A spirit from Allah.
8. There is no mention of Ibnullah, the son of Allah.

Muslims believe all of the above seven names with their proper meanings. But there is no Ibn Allah. There is nothing about Jesus son of Allah.

My dear brother,

I know that we have soo many disagreements. You know what? I myself do not quite like the term “son” referring to Jesus. To me, Jesus is the Kalimatullah which is Word of God, and I put such word of God above anything and everything I could comprehend. In other words, I put such word of God as God. The term “son” which is not 100% correct, is the closest representative of human language which can describe about the relationship of God the Father and Word of God. No human language can describe the closeness of God the Father and Word of God, as two Hyposthasis in one Essence (in one or two simple words). So, although I don’t quite 100% agree with the term “son” at this point, I don’t mind accepting such terminology when I am talking about about Jesus.

 

[narrowpath]

Salaam/peace

so , why waste time ? Come on Christians , start thinking seriously how Not to worship human or angel dieties

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1203758539201&pagename=Zone-English-Youth%2FYTELayout

We don’t. Catholics only worship the uncreated an eternal God, the Holy trinity. we pray to saints and angels for their intercession.

 

[planten]

Ah i see. You don’t believe God is omnipresent?

And how is God supposed to be in a rock? I know what the Qiblah is, but why would God ask Muslims to face a rock rather than the heavens? I can understand if God commanded Muslims to face Jerusalem, what i don’t understand is why God would change His mind later on? Is God really that indecisive? Or is God angry with the Jews so He asked Muslims to face a rock instead?

**cathopologist, We Muslims believe that God is omnipotent and omnipresent. We do not face Ka’abah because God is there. It is because God has told us to do that. Why did God say like that? That is nobody’s business. And God was not in that mount where to the Jews were facing. It was that God had once appeared there. That is all. Why Jews were facing a place for their worship?. God was not permanently residing there?

Can any christian please tell me why did God send an angel to the carpentar telling him that Mary was already pregnant and that Joseph should not go near her? There is no end to such questions.

God did not change His mind. He (God) had told in the previous scriptures by the prophet, in the words “The kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given over to a people who will bring the fruit theirof”. When the kingdom or leadership was taken away then it was the end of their affair. That included the Jews and the christians. So Jerusalem was no more the center of attraction for prayers.

The leadership was given to the Muslims and the center for prayer was establihed in Makkah. It is the will of God. We cannot question God.**

 

[swariffin]

**cathopologist, We Muslims believe that God is omnipotent and omnipresent. We do not face Ka’abah because God is there. It is because God has told us to do that. Why did God say like that? That is nobody’s business. And God was not in that mount where to the Jews were facing. It was that God had once appeared there. That is all. Why Jews were facing a place for their worship?. God was not permanently residing there?
**

Sister Amy does not believe that God is omnipresent and she does not believe that God is in Kaaba. Interestingly, both sister Amy and Planten are muslims. Who is correct?? How can I know who is right or wrong. And, how can I respond to either one of them?

Let me rephrase Cathopologist question. Is or Is it not Allah in Kaaba?

You said you do not question Allah. Do you question Muhammad? Why Muhammad say that Allah has changed his mind and ask you guys to face Kaaba where Allah does not there? Come on Planten, you are not going to that circular logic again, are you?

Q = How do you know that it is Allah’s command?
A = It is written in Quran

Q = How do you know that Allah’s command in Quran is genuine?
A = Muhammad said so

Q = How do you know that Muhammad is not deceived?
A = It is written in Quran.
planten;4390885:

Can any christian please tell me why did God send an angel to the carpentar telling him that Mary was already pregnant and that Joseph should not go near her? There is no end to such questions.

Where do get the idea that the Angel told Joseph not to go near Mary? See Mat 1:20:

1. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

God did not change His mind. He (God) had told in the previous scriptures by the prophet, in the words “The kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given over to a people who will bring the fruit theirof”. When the kingdom or leadership was taken away then it was the end of their affair. That included the Jews and the christians. So Jerusalem was no more the center of attraction for prayers.

The leadership was given to the Muslims and the center for prayer was establihed in Makkah. It is the will of God. We cannot question God.

Please quote in the Bible that God said specifically that the leadership was given to the Muslims. How can a Muslim be a leader, where there is no unity in tafseer of even your own Quran to be a leader, anyway. To whom shall we listen to the correct tafseer? To Caliph named Planten or else, To the Hamas leader? to Usamah bin Laden? or to my lovely Hajj Grandpa?

 

[cathopologist]

We do not face Ka’abah because God is there. It is because God has told us to do that. Why did God say like that? That is nobody’s business.

Why should it be nobody’s business when humankind is given the intelligence to question? Questioning God’s motives isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Christianity does not forbid us to question.

And God was not in that mount where to the Jews were facing.

Is God in the Ka’bah?**
**

It was that God had once appeared there. That is all. Why Jews were facing a place for their worship?. God was not permanently residing there?

God did appear there. That is the point. Is there evidence in the Qur’an to suggest God’s residence or appearance in the Ka’bah? **
**

The leadership was given to the Muslims and the center for prayer was establihed in Makkah. It is the will of God. We cannot question God.

No, the leadership was claimed by Mohammad. Nobody witnessed the miraculous appearance of Gabriel when it happened. Mohammad silenced his critics when they questioned his authenticity and put them to death. That shows fear on Mohammad’s part, not God’s plan.

 

[Sister_Amy]

This does lead me to another question, though, based on the post of mine that you replied to: **What exactly does belief in Islam equip you to do for God? **For the faith of Islam? I have posted that I believe that my Christian faith provides me with everything I need to engage in discussions like this one (though I may sometimes like you answer “I don’t know”, because after all I don’t claim to know hardly anything, and there are many things that we may never know). I know there is an answer from God for everything that we could ever wonder, even if I or all of humanity will never see it. From that perspective, I feel it my Christian duty to at least try…to try to answer, to try to investigate, to try to discover what I can. Do I fear punishment if I “speak out of turn”, so to speak? Of course! I try to do all of these things carefully and with utmost respect for that very reason. But I love and revere God, even as I fear Him as He is to be feared, so it is with that perspective that I try my best every day to be open to everyone’s questions, and His answers. It is that balance of humility and adventurousness that He has tempered me with that I must be careful to maintain. We must be mindful of pride and of neglect, right?

What has Allaah blessed you with, in this regard?

This is really a fascinating question. I see that I’m still misunderstood regarding my decision to refuse to answer certain questions. But it’s such an interesting question… with such a simple answer.

What exactly does belief in Islam equip me to do for God?

To worship Him.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Huh? You can’t answer my question but you call me fall into a trap? What kind of logic is that. I said the Muslim face away from God and you could not answer. I believe that God is omnipresent so I don’t care to what direction I face when praying. I can even pray in the restroom if necessary. Ha…ha… sister, You are who fall into a trap, but not realizing it. And yet, calling me falling into a trap. What a silly conclusion. If you are not in a trap, why don’t you just answer my question? Stop launching incorrect statements. That will make your credibility suffer. Was it not you who call me to grow up? If I have not grown up enough, but capable of cornering you, let alone when I have grown up. Please look at the mirror and see your own picture before seeing other. Not only you fail to see the mistakes of others, you fail to see your own mistakes.

This would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Of course Allah is not IN the Ka’ba.

What’s the problem?

 

[inJESUS]

Of course Allah is not IN the Ka’ba.

What’s the problem?

i don’t think there is a problem but some have a curiousity as to why does Allah ask you to direct your 5 times daily prayers towards the Kaaba if you say he is not present there…who or what are you bowing to if not Allah, in other words.

 

[Sister_Amy]

i don’t think there is a problem but some have a curiousity as to why does Allah ask you to direct your 5 times daily prayers towards the Kaaba if you say he is not present there…who or what are you bowing to if not Allah, in other words.

We bow because God says to bow. We prostrate because He says to prostrate. And we face the Ka’ba because He commands us to face the Ka’ba.

You ask why God command this. It makes sense to me, unites the Muslims so beautifully, that I don’t really care why though I don’t have an exact answer. More to the point, I wouldn’t even ask the question. It is we mortals who answer to God and not the other way around.

 

[inJESUS]

We bow because God says to bow. We prostrate because He says to prostrate. And we face the Ka’ba because He commands us to face the Ka’ba.

.

i know Amy that you do because he says so but who are you bowing to if Allah is not there? and is there a reason why he asks you to do so? do you ask yourselves questions, does he explain to you , or it is just do and you do?

 

[Sister_Amy]

i know Amy that you do because he says so but who are you bowing to if Allah is not there? and is there a reason why he asks you to do so? do you ask yourselves questions, does he explain to you , or it is just do and you do?

Let’s think about this.

I live in Raleigh, NC. I pray in Raleigh, NC. Miles and miles and miles away from the Ka’ba. I can’t even see the Ka’ba, I just face 55 east of north, or as near it as I can. I am bowing before Allaah, while facing the direction of the Ka’ba. We stand in rows, and all face the same direction–something we can do, all over the world, because we have this focal point. And everyone can imagine what it would be like to be standing, bowing and prostrating before their Lord. The ability to behave like one can see Allaah is a level of excellence in a person’s Islam. If a person can’t do that, though, then he should at least know that Allaah can see him.

2:285 The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], “We make no distinction between any of His messengers.” And they say, “We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination.”

2:177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing.

 

[ralphinal]

Let’s think about this.

I live in Raleigh, NC. I pray in Raleigh, NC. Miles and miles and miles away from the Ka’ba. I can’t even see the Ka’ba, I just face 55 east of north, or as near it as I can. I am bowing before Allaah, while facing the direction of the Ka’ba. We stand in rows, and all face the same direction–something we can do, all over the world, because we have this focal point. And everyone can imagine what it would be like to be standing, bowing and prostrating before their Lord. The ability to behave like one can see Allaah is a level of excellence in a person’s Islam. If a person can’t do that, though, then he should at least know that Allaah can see him.

2:285 The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], “We make no distinction between any of His messengers.” And they say, “We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination.”

2:177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing.

Do you literally face the direction of it or does everyone face East? Since the earth is round, does it matter?

What if you were in space? On the moon?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Do you literally face the direction of it or does everyone face East? Since the earth is round, does it matter?

What if you were in space? On the moon?

What sense does it make for everyone to face east? What if you live in Brazil, or anywhere in the Southern Hemisphere, would facing “East” be facing the Ka’ba? Or if you were immediately to the east or north of the Ka’ba… why would you face east when the Ka’ba is directly south, or west?

If you can get your hands on a globe, try an experiment for me. Get a piece of string or tape or wire or whatever, and put one end on Mecca, and one end somewhere else. There is always a “shortest” distance to Mecca. That’s the direction you face to face the Ka’ba.

Space is a big place, you’d have to be more specific–but probably, towards earth. And the moon moves with respect to the earth so also, not specific enough, though most likely, towards earth. (I really don’t know the answer, and presently don’t care since I’m not in space or on the moon.) There was a Malaysian astronaut I think… but I don’t recall the specific answers.

 

[ralphinal]

What sense does it make for everyone to face east? What if you live in Brazil, or anywhere in the Southern Hemisphere, would facing “East” be facing the Ka’ba? Or if you were immediately to the east or north of the Ka’ba… why would you face east when the Ka’ba is directly south, or west?

If you can get your hands on a globe, try an experiment for me. Get a piece of string or tape or wire or whatever, and put one end on Mecca, and one end somewhere else. There is always a “shortest” distance to Mecca. That’s the direction you face to face the Ka’ba.

Space is a big place, you’d have to be more specific–but probably, towards earth. And the moon moves with respect to the earth so also, not specific enough, though most likely, towards earth. (I really don’t know the answer, and presently don’t care since I’m not in space or on the moon.) There was a Malaysian astronaut I think… but I don’t recall the specific answers.

Now I know about the globe. I had been told that the cry to prayer was always “look to the east.” that was why I asked.

The answer to the space question is ok. Looking at earth. I will not ask what if you were farther out and did not know the direction to earth…

 

[Sister_Amy]

Now I know about the globe. I had been told that the cry to prayer was always “look to the east.” that was why I asked.

This is the call to prayer:

God is Greater x4
I bear witness there is no god but Allaah x2
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allaah x2
Come to prayer x2
Come to success x2
(prayer is better than sleep x2 for fajr prayer only)
God is Greater x2
There is no god but Allaah

The answer to the space question is ok. Looking at earth. I will not ask what if you were farther out and did not know the direction to earth…

Here’s a question for you to ponder. What if you are locked in an isolated, dark, prison cell and your captors refuse to tell you which direction Mecca is. Where do you face?

 

[inJESUS]

I am bowing before Allaah, while facing the direction of the Ka’ba.
.

this will take us to different sub-titles which i might mention in the new thread i opened regarding whether Allah is omnipresent or not. thank you for your answers about this point.

 

[ralphinal]

This is the call to prayer:

God is Greater x4
I bear witness there is no god but Allaah x2
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allaah x2
Come to prayer x2
Come to success x2
(prayer is better than sleep x2 for fajr prayer only)
God is Greater x2
There is no god but Allaah

Here’s a question for you to ponder. What if you are locked in an isolated, dark, prison cell and your captors refuse to tell you which direction Mecca is. Where do you face?

I always face the direction that my face is pointing

I would think that it would not matter in that case. Surely Allah would understand.

 

[dzheremi]

This is really a fascinating question. I see that I’m still misunderstood regarding my decision to refuse to answer certain questions. But it’s such an interesting question… with such a simple answer.

What exactly does belief in Islam equip me to do for God?

To worship Him.

Yes…that IS a simple answer!

And I sort of figured you would answer that way. I had hoped that in the context of the rest of the post it would be obvious that I was asking with regard to your dealings with non-Muslims, but okay.