The Uncreated Qur'an

[Sister_Amy]

and which i respect, provided your reason is not “because of the Christian mind”.

You stated your reasons in the next post, and it’s much better to say you are not sure about the answer.

**dzheremi **, great post.

Maybe. I’m confident of my beliefs. I’m not confident in my abilities to debate something so sensitive–which, as I feared, was even with the best intentions quickly misconstrued.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Maybe you would like for me to explain the Islamic concept of monotheism. I can do that textbook-style if you’re interested. Maybe it would help.

 

[inJESUS]

Maybe you would like for me to explain the Islamic concept of monotheism. I can do that textbook-style if you’re interested. Maybe it would help.

am not sure it would help the discussion of the uncreatedness of the Quran. The belief that the Quran is uncreated is compatible with Islamic monotheism and we are not discussing against it.

As to the OP, you said it is a sensitive issue, maybe it is more sensitive to a Muslim than a Christian, because Christians have no problem discussing it, on the contrary we must, nor is there any fear of compromising monotheism because there isn’t a compromise, whereas Muslims have a problem maybe because they are not encouraged to discuss such theological issues out of fear … yet what we are discussing is in Islam, despite its seemingly strict monotheism. After all, there is La Ilaha Illallah alongside the belief in the uncreatedness of the Quran which is not Allah yet not different. It is not Christians who will tell you it is shirk because alongside monotheism, we explain the nature of this monothesim as revealed by the Father, Word and Spirit, One God.

 

[inJESUS]

Dear brother,

So, Jesus is indeed “Kalimathullah” which means Words of God. Thank you brother.

more accurately, it is Word not Words. To Muslims , the Word of Allah is usually explained in terms of Allah’s will to create so he says “be” in the womb of Mary …yet no one is called the Word of Allah except Jesus, which is peculiar, putting in mind John’s writings. Now if you combine this Islamic answer to the question of why would Jesus be the only One called as such and born as such, you will start seeing the holes in Islamic answers, compared to Christianity where things have a meaning…something just doesn’t add up with Islamic answers, unless you want to stay on the surface of things.

 

[Sister_Amy]

am not sure it would help the discussion of the uncreatedness of the Quran. The belief that the Quran is uncreated is compatible with Islamic monotheism and we are not discussing against it.

As to the OP, you said it is a sensitive issue, maybe it is more sensitive to a Muslim than a Christian, because Christians have no problem discussing it, on the contrary we must, nor is there any fear of compromising monotheism because there isn’t a compromise, whereas Muslims have a problem maybe because they are not encouraged to discuss such theological issues out of fear … yet what we are discussing is in Islam, despite its seemingly strict monotheism. After all, there is La Ilaha Illallah alongside the belief in the uncreatedness of the Quran which is not Allah yet not different. It is not Christians who will tell you it is shirk because alongside monotheism, we explain the nature of this monothesim as revealed by the Father, Word and Spirit, One God.

I wouldn’t mind discussing it with Muslims. I don’t fear that it would jeopardize a Muslim’s view of monotheism either.

The reason I don’t want to discuss it here, with you, drips from each of your posts, and I’ve even mentioned it myself. Overall there’s no worthwhile reason for my to participate except my own ego.

After all, there is La Ilaha Illallah alongside the belief in the uncreatedness of the Quran which is not Allah yet not different

Of course it is different.

Kind of like walking the wrong way on an escalator talking to you people.

 

[Sister_Amy]

more accurately, it is Word not Words. To Muslims , the Word of Allah is usually explained in terms of Allah’s will to create so he says “be” in the womb of Mary …yet no one is called the Word of Allah except Jesus, which is peculiar, putting in mind John’s writings. Now if you combine this Islamic answer to the question of why would Jesus be the only One called as such and born as such, you will start seeing the holes in Islamic answers, compared to Christianity where things have a meaning…**something just doesn’t add up **with Islamic answers, unless you want to stay on the surface of things.

Amusing choice of words, given the discussion at hand… lol

 

[inJESUS]

I wouldn’t mind discussing it with Muslims. I don’t fear that it would jeopardize a Muslim’s view of monotheism either.

The reason I don’t want to discuss it here, with you, drips from each of your posts, and I’ve even mentioned it myself. Overall there’s no worthwhile reason for my to participate except my own ego.

 

[Sister_Amy]

there are people seeing this thread, Muslim, Christians, atheists, and others…there are unregistered visitors who might be reading and evaluating. Such threads are not meant to be personal but theological.

 

[dzheremi]

Why do you keep repeating “I am not a theologian, are you?”, Sister Amy? Is this supposed to be considered an answer to what inJESUS has posted? Are you trying to say that only theologians can talk about a religion’s theological positions with any amount of authority or confidence? I thought that’s what this conversation was based on, so now I’m a bit confused that you seem to want to pull away from it by pointing out that none of us are theologians (something we all know). Does that prevent us from having the conversation we are already clearly having and that you are participating in (though it seems to be against your will…)?

I don’t know…that may settle the issues raised by this thread for you, but to this non-Muslim that seems like a non-answer. It doesn’t seem up to the same standard by which you answered my earlier post. You can do better, if you actually want to.

 

[inJESUS]

am trying to elevate the discussion but you are engaging in personal remarks. No am not a theologian but i humbly believe that God gave me the minimum mental capacity needed to read and understand.

LOL. Whatever.

i don’t see why you are laughing. It is you who are having a problem discussing what we have no problem discussing with anyone.

People of truth, eh? Not heard that one before… LOL.

What are my sources? I’ve never heard of “The People of Truth” nor do I know who you’re quoting. I simply don’t know, and I won’t accept it as anything until I do know.

my mistake. Everything i quoted about this topic you can find it here:

livingislam.org/uncrq_e.html

Nor can I imagine how you think that if the Qur’an is different from Allah in essence implies polytheism.

if the Quran is different from Allah in essence, and is not Allah in position, it means you believe in 2 seperate and different entities/things uncreated and eternal : Allah and the Quran.

Or if it’s not, that it doesn’t imply polytheism.

because you are belieiving in One Allah and His Word which is Him, not a seperate thing/entity.

 

[cathopologist]

Why do you keep repeating “I am not a theologian, are you?”, Sister Amy? Is this supposed to be considered an answer to what inJESUS has posted? Are you trying to say that only theologians can talk about a religion’s theological positions with any amount of authority or confidence? I thought that’s what this conversation was based on, so now I’m a bit confused that you seem to want to pull away from it by pointing out that none of us are theologians (something we all know). Does that prevent us from having the conversation we are already clearly having and that you are participating in (though it seems to be against your will…)?

I don’t know…that may settle the issues raised by this thread for you, but to this non-Muslim that seems like a non-answer. It doesn’t seem up to the same standard by which you answered my earlier post. You can do better, if you actually want to.

Like you, i had hopes of her being more presentable and well-informed in her discussions, as the other Muslims normally shy away. planten is an exception of course - in a world of his own.

 

[swariffin]

Why do you keep repeating “I am not a theologian, are you?”, Sister Amy? Is this supposed to be considered an answer to what inJESUS has posted? Are you trying to say that only theologians can talk about a religion’s theological positions with any amount of authority or confidence? I thought that’s what this conversation was based on, so now I’m a bit confused that you seem to want to pull away from it by pointing out that none of us are theologians (something we all know). Does that prevent us from having the conversation we are already clearly having and that you are participating in (though it seems to be against your will…)?

I don’t know…that may settle the issues raised by this thread for you, but to this non-Muslim that seems like a non-answer. It doesn’t seem up to the same standard by which you answered my earlier post. You can do better, if you actually want to.

Dear, brother.

When Sister Amy cannot answer the question, she begin either (a) attacking the personality of whoever ask the question, (b) ask us to ask directly to God (which I did, and I found that the enemy of Allah was tricking Muhammad to face away from God, and such error was passed to the current generation unknowingly), or (c) evading the question and mumbling about unnecessary things, such as “I am not a theologian, are you?”

 

[swariffin]

You act as though the answer somehow matters to me. It doesn’t.

Yet it matters to you. So ask God.

Get on your knees, put your face on the floor, and pray. That’s always a good way to start.

I do care of anything about God. So, I always be aware so the enemy of Allah will never be able to turn me away from God.

You are strange and does not sound Islamic. Islam is submission to God, and yet you are facing to the direction where God is not, there. If you don’t care about that, it is fine to me, and it is not my problem anyway.

But, for a follower of Muhammad referring me to ask to another about Islam is surprising. Shall I ask about Islam to a catholic priest? Come on…

I did ask God, and found that you are being deceived to face away from God, and yet continue to claim submission to God.
What a pity…

 

[swariffin]

more accurately, it is Word not Words. To Muslims , the Word of Allah is usually explained in terms of Allah’s will to create so he says “be” in the womb of Mary …yet no one is called the Word of Allah except Jesus, which is peculiar, putting in mind John’s writings. Now if you combine this Islamic answer to the question of why would Jesus be the only One called as such and born as such, you will start seeing the holes in Islamic answers, compared to Christianity where things have a meaning…something just doesn’t add up with Islamic answers, unless you want to stay on the surface of things.

I agree completely, brother. You have given me many interesting (name removed by moderator)ut, not only from this thread, but from others too. I must admit that I have learned much from you too. Thanks and God Bless You. Perhaps, Muhammad had not or could not understand Christology enough when he came out with his theology.

 

[dzheremi]

Swariffin,

I respect your opinion very much, but I do not think this is so. I have had good conversations with Sister Amy in which she did not answer in any of those ways. That is why I am disappointed that she has resorted to some of those methods just because she does not want to have this conversation.

As I said before, I think she can do better. Maybe it is some Christian bias (of which I am most definitely guilty ), but I cannot for the life of me understand why this conversation should be “off-limits” just because we are not all theologians. I am not a theologian, but I believe in my religion down to the very marrow of my bones. How can I ever refuse to discuss it, even with those who have no interest in its truth? They have still asked, and I am REQUIRED to answer to the best of my ability. God answers OUR every need, and He has blessed us with reason and love and passion and compassion and everything else that we need to take up our crosses and follow the narrow path. To shy away from that for any reason is, of course, a matter of human frailty and sinfulness, but again it is through Our Lord that we overcome these things.

What is it that we cannot do? Answer questions on a messageboard?

NOTE: I realize that these are all Christian perspectives and I don’t expect Sister Amy or even any fellow Christian for that matter to hold them. We are all individuals and I respect Sister Amy’s right to not answer anything that she doesn’t want to answer. She has given her reasons, and they make sense within the context that she has given. I just don’t see things the same way, of course.

 

[swariffin]

Swariffin,

I respect your opinion very much, but I do not think this is so. I have had good conversations with Sister Amy in which she did not answer in any of those ways. That is why I am disappointed that she has resorted to some of those methods just because she does not want to have this conversation.

As I said before, I think she can do better. Maybe it is some Christian bias (of which I am most definitely guilty ), but I cannot for the life of me understand why this conversation should be “off-limits” just because we are not all theologians. I am not a theologian, but I believe in my religion down to the very marrow of my bones. How can I ever refuse to discuss it, even with those who have no interest in its truth? They have still asked, and I am REQUIRED to answer to the best of my ability. God answers OUR every need, and He has blessed us with reason and love and passion and compassion and everything else that we need to take up our crosses and follow the narrow path. To shy away from that for any reason is, of course, a matter of human frailty and sinfulness, but again it is through Our Lord that we overcome these things.

What is it that we cannot do? Answer questions on a messageboard?

NOTE: I realize that these are all Christian perspectives and I don’t expect Sister Amy or even any fellow Christian for that matter to hold them. We are all individuals and I respect Sister Amy’s right to not answer anything that she doesn’t want to answer. She has given her reasons, and they make sense within the context that she has given. I just don’t see things the same way, of course.

Dear brother,

You are correct, basically. I never ever had any intention to defame Islam. My grandpa is a muslim and a Hajj anyway. But, he is uneducated, and I do not haveory any satisfactory answer from him. To me, he is the best muslim who represents the good face of Islam.

If Amy can not answer a question, just say so. I could ask someone else. Admitting not enough knowledge about God’s teaching is not a bad thing, I believe. In that case, we have a new motivation to learn more, to dig more, and understand more. In this way, we can increase our faith to God, can’t we? Well, no human ever have enough knowledge about God, anyway. But, please do not attack other people’s personality. Don’t also evading the question and keep the impression that she knows everything. That is not a proper way to have an educated and adult discussion, let alone a friendly one, is it?

 

[planten]

Dear brother,

So, Jesus is indeed “Kalimathullah” which means Words of God. Thank you brother.

**swariffin, in Quran Jesus is referred to as:

1. Kalimatullah,** A word from Allah.
2. Rasool Allah, The messenger of Allah,
3. Ayatullah, A sign of Allah,
4. Rehmatullah, A mercy from Allah,
5. Abudullah, A faithful servant of Allah,
6. Nabi Allah A prophet of Allah,
7. Roohullah. A spirit from Allah.
8. There is no mention of Ibnullah, the son of Allah.

Muslims believe all of the above seven names with their proper meanings. But there is no Ibn Allah. There is nothing about Jesus son of Allah.

 

[cathopologist]

Muslims believe all of the above seven names with their proper meanings. But there is no Ibn Allah. There is nothing about Jesus son of Allah.

This is because there were heretic sects who influenced Mohammad’s distorted view of Christianity. These groups believed in a form of the Trinity but see it as three gods. Furthermore, classical Islam depicted the Trinity as “God, Jesus, and Mary,” - which is total hogwash because countless historians, scholars and commentators have tried to correct Islam’s view of the Christian Trinity and they still refused to listen to corrections because of their pride.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Why do you keep repeating “I am not a theologian, are you?”, Sister Amy? Is this supposed to be considered an answer to what inJESUS has posted? Are you trying to say that only theologians can talk about a religion’s theological positions with any amount of authority or confidence? I thought that’s what this conversation was based on, so now I’m a bit confused that you seem to want to pull away from it by pointing out that none of us are theologians (something we all know). Does that prevent us from having the conversation we are already clearly having and that you are participating in (though it seems to be against your will…)?

I’m not trying to point out that you are not theologians–because honestly, I don’t know whether you are or not. I just know that I’m not. And absolutely, that prevents me from discussing “theological positions with any amount of authority or confidence.” I don’t need to pretend to be an expert on things which are clearly beyond my grasp at present. So if you wish to have a serious theological discussion, you ought to talk to theologians. Not the lesser-qualified people like myself.

I don’t know…that may settle the issues raised by this thread for you, but to this non-Muslim that seems like a non-answer. It doesn’t seem up to the same standard by which you answered my earlier post. You can do better, if you actually want to.

Of course it’s a non-answer. That was the point, actually. I don’t think I’ve tried to hide the fact that I’m not into answering these questions…

 

[Sister_Amy]

am trying to elevate the discussion but you are engaging in personal remarks. No am not a theologian but i humbly believe that God gave me the minimum mental capacity needed to read and understand.

if the Quran is different from Allah in essence, and is not Allah in position, it means you believe in 2 seperate and different entities/things uncreated and eternal : Allah and the Quran.

because you are belieiving in One Allah and His Word which is Him, not a seperate thing/entity.

How many times have I told you that the Qur’an is not an entity?