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Nate13
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Haha no one said that. I said it is a lot more than just pleasure. Selective reading can be a pain.
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searching04
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Well, hello, LaSainte! Glad you’re out there!
Agree on the unitive aspect above - bingo. It isn’t just feelings as some here have implied.
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searching04
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Nate13
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You have a very pessimistic view of life. The contraceptive mentality is I want to have sex and I have no plans to accept a life should it come of what we are about to do. I don’t think what you described above would be considered a contraceptive mentality. If your prepared to accept your fertility at whatever level it is at, your accepting the reality of the situation and the potential for life inherent in every act of intercourse. The problem is when people believe that sex can be completely separated from baby-making.
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Nate13
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Not surprising since the anger and vitriol inherent in many of your posts is shared by LeSainte on occasion.
I do so love it when you respond!
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Wardog
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I think Pope Paul was pretty clear that the users of NFP share the same “contraceptive mentality” that the users of ABC do. In fact, the words he used were “It cannot be denied…”
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Nate13
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Define contraceptive mentality please so we can avoid further squabbling based on a misunderstanding of a term.
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twoangels
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I asked if I was wrong about the meaning of the unitive purpose of sex. If the unitive purpose of sex referred specifically only to the physical act of sexual intercourse, than my conclusion would be wrong. Everyone else has been condemning me for a conclusion I’ve come to that has little to do with the question I asked.Twoangels, I in no way meant to be offensive.
Again, please speak to an actual person who would be knowlegeable.
As for the perforated condom, I showed it was a licit means, not sure why you put the Pope Paul link.
I’m not sure why you opened a thread and asked “Am I Wrong” if you are so sure you are correct.
BTW as for sexual dysfunction, I am somewhat knowledgeable. I’m an abuse survivor, and with my past, I shouldn’t really even like men.
I’m unsubscribing.
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searching04
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Your quote:
I believe two angels was talking about the fact that a contraceptive mentality makes the act wrong whether you are using contraceptives or NFP. You are rather referring to the objective difference between contraception and NFP which is the means by which each method goes about reaching the same end.
If a contraceptive mentality makes the act wrong, I stand by what I posted. What is the differrence then of having sex in infertile times with the hope of not having a baby, and having sex in infertile times and saying, “OK, we accept one if he comes along.” Obvioulsy, accepting, but the intent is to avoid. Splitting hairs. Not pessimistic at all. Why do you think Catholics get so wrapped up in issues concerning sex and NFP and teachings and when you can do what with your spouse?
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Nate13
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The problem is you define contraceptive mentality as “hoping you don’t have a baby, when having sex”. This is not the contraceptive mentality haha.
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Wardog
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Contraceptitive mentality means that there is a desire to have sex without getting pregnant. It does not matter if ABC or NFP is used. In each case, the intent is the same.
If a pregnancy occurs, then that is a separate issue; Abortion is never acceptable. But then that could be said of persons using ABC as well as NFP. Abortion is an unacceptable option in either case. A couple using ABC that fails must choose to continue with the pregnancy. A couple using NFP cannot choose to end the pregnancy.
We are not discussing the relative merits of NFP or ABC, just the intent to have sex without getting pregnant.
Pope Paul clearly states:
Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process.** It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. **But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.
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searching04
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Anger? No. Frustration? Yes.
Vitriol? Not in the least. Disagree with you? You bet.
I like her responses because she is straight up, to the point, and dead on. And from a woman’s point of view.
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searching04
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searching04
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Not all here think you were wrong…
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Nate13
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unitive = bringing two people together. This happens physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Yes pleasure is part of this. Both persons gaining pleasure from doing something together is incredibly unitive. As I pointed out from the passage in Genesis though “one flesh” does refer to the tangible meeting of the genitals. Putting tab A in slot B as wardog likes to refer to it as, is part of the unitive meaning. The spiritual aspect is in realizing that sexual intercourse has been designed by God to be in the likeness of the love experienced within the Trinity. Sexual intercourse in many ways is when we find ourselves closest to God and the love inherent within the Trinity.
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Nate13
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See post #148. You quoted me giving you a definition
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ahs
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It really does not take much time to study Encyclicals and Chruch Doctrine. I average about an hour per week (sometimes more, sometimes less) reading through the Catechism and reading whatever Encyclical apllies to whatever question or concern I have at the time. I read from the Bible each evening (this can even be a family event)…maybe a chapter or a half chapter of any given book. Tradition can be studied at the same pace…by reading a few pages from the early Church Fathers’ documents (all available online these days).
And we are not supposed to “stop”. Our Faith should be the most important thing in our lives, because it is our Faith that teaches us how to be good spouses, parents, workers, individuals, etc…living a life that is pleasing to God. It is only fitting that we should devote some time to studying our Faith daily. We may have to give up an hour of TV or “free-time” to do it, but the time is available if you make it available.
Your truth and my truth doesn’t matter unless it is in unison to God’s Truth. We can be certain about God’s Truth by reading the Bible, the Catechism and reading the Popes as I mentioned above. Our Priest will explain these teachings in his homlies/sermons and even in private during confession or Bible studies. If we have put any amount of time into learning the Faith, we will begin to properly form our conscience and we will be able to tell when a Priest says something that does not sound right…that does not coincide with the Church’s teaching. At that time, we can privately ask the Priest to clarify what he said and let him know what our understanding of the Faith is and go from there. It IS simple…just takes time and effort on our part.
Here are a couple links you may find helpful:
papalencyclicals.net/
vatican.va/ (click on your language preference)
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searching04
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Your definition:See post #148. You quoted me giving you a definition
The contraceptive mentality is I want to have sex and I have no plans to accept a life should it come of what we are about to do.
Disagree, because whether you use ABC or NFP at infertile times, the point is to avoid. Difference here is the focus on timing or intent with NFP.
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ahs
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By conforming to this:
2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:
When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.155
2369 "By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man’s exalted vocation to parenthood."156
2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.157 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:158
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality… the difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.159 (CCC)
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ahs
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The unitive aspect cannot be separeted fromteh procreative aspect. Each act is unitive by nature and ordered toward procreation by nature. If we disrupt either of those, the act is disordered.
You mentioned stimulating your husband to climax outside of you. This is masturbation (see CCC 2352).
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” **For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving AND [not “or” ] human procreation **in the context of true love is achieved."138
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.-emphasis and brackets mine
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