The Universal Church

[Isaac14]

The saying, “Where Peter is, there is the Church.” should be “Where Christ is, by the power of the Holy Spirit, there is the Church”

It is interesting to note this quote of St. Ignatius of Antioch: “Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

Oddly enough, no mention of Peter

As a tangent, I think it worthwhile to share the Orthodox approach. Similar to the Catholics, we hold ourselves to be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Yet, we also assert that while we know where the Holy Spirit is, we do not know where the Holy Spirit is not; a much less wordy way, perhaps, of saying what Pope St. John Paul the II said.

 

[steve-b]

mcq72:

That we came with such a thought 1500 years later is false , as is your thought that it was from the beginnng, otherwise “development” would never be mentioned by any historian.

Until Steve-b comes to a realization of this point, as well as what "KNOWING that the Catholic Church is correct and required for salvation" means and also that anyone who reply to him is “not just simply describing themselves” he will keep talking past anyone he is trying to respond to and not be taken seriously.

I quote CC documents to support what I say. You give your opinion backed up by your opinion after your opinion after your opinion…,.,.

 

[steve-b]

The CC can say what it wants about itself. The Orthodox Church is the Church, which, by the way, referenced from Roman Catholic documents, has valid sacraments and the right to govern itself (which would make our sacraments is the eyes of the CC, licit). If you choose to ignore it, that’s your decision.

Re: Licit vs illicit on the sacraments

From canon law made easy

You won’t read that, but I post it because there are many readers on this thread, who read but don’t participate. As in 8.1k readers so far

ziapueblo:

Interesting that the CC would allow its member, albeit in extreme circumstances (although I know many well informed Greek Catholics, clergy and laity, who commune in each other’s Churches), to receive the sacraments in our Churches.

ZP

Answered in the canon law link. above.

 

[Isaac14]

Answered in the canon law link. above

It’s interesting to learn that in certain situations, the answer is indeed YES.

 

[ziapueblo]

From canon law made easy

I’ve read it. It’s not the first time you or someone else posted it.

Our sacraments are valid and licit and as far as the Vatican is concerned we are able to govern ourselves with no (name removed by moderator)ut from Rome.

ZP
ZP

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

From canon law made easy

I’ve read it. It’s not the first time you or someone else posted it.

Our sacraments are valid and licit and as far as the Vatican is concerned we are able to govern ourselves with no (name removed by moderator)ut from Rome.

ZP
ZP

And as it describes specifically

While valid,
because of schism then, the CC considers them illicit. THAT is why a Catholic can’t fulfill the Sunday obligation to go to Mass in an Orthodox church.

 

[steve-b]

lanman87:

The saying, “Where Peter is, there is the Church.” should be “Where Christ is, by the power of the Holy Spirit, there is the Church”

It is interesting to note this quote of St. Ignatius of Antioch: “Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

Oddly enough, no mention of Peter

Good …Grief…

BTW

When Ignatius writes to the Church of Rome, he does mention Peter and Paul ch 4 since it is Peter’s see … ergo why Ignatius says the Church of Rome holds the presidency

Isaac14:

As a tangent, I think it worthwhile to share the Orthodox approach. Similar to the Catholics, we hold ourselves to be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Yet, we also assert that while we know where the Holy Spirit is, we do not know where the Holy Spirit is not; a much less wordy way, perhaps, of saying what Pope St. John Paul the II said.

Can you show me (properly referenced) where the name Orthodox Church first appears in writing?

Thanks in advance

 

[Isaac14]

Can you show me (properly referenced) where the name Orthodox Church first appears in writing ?

Thanks in advance

I don’t feel like playing your games. Particularly when your own fellow Catholics have said this name game is irrelevant and, frankly, a line of “argument” that accomplishes nothing. Further, I really don’t have the time to search out and properly reference those threads, but I will if you insist.

 

[steve-b]

Isaac14:

Can you show me (properly referenced) where the name Orthodox Church first appears in writing ?

Thanks in advance

I don’t feel like playing your games. Particularly when your own fellow Catholics have said this name game is irrelevant and, frankly, a line of “argument” that accomplishes nothing. Further, I really don’t have the time to search out and properly reference those threads, but I will if you insist.

It’s no game. It’s a valid question? I’d like to see the answer…properly referenced. No personal opinions backed up by someone’s personal opinions. I’m looking for proper references.

 

[Isaac14]

It’s a valid question? I’d like to see the answer… properly referenced . No personal opinions backed up by someone’s personal opinions. I’m looking for proper references.

What do you hope to prove once you have your properly referenced answer?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

It’s a valid question? I’d like to see the answer… properly referenced . No personal opinions backed up by someone’s personal opinions. I’m looking for proper references.

What do you hope to prove once you have your properly referenced answer?

That you answered my question

 

[Isaac14]

That you answered my question

Knowing you, I can’t imagine there isn’t some larger point you want to copy/paste into this conversation in your effort to discredit the Orthodox Church.

 

[steve-b]

Thanks for that. It is a beautifully written statement by Pope John Paul II.

The telling paragraph for me is

In section 11

To the extent that these elements are found in other Christian Communities, the one Church of Christ is effectively present in them. For this reason the Second Vatican Council speaks of acertain, though imperfect communion. The Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium stresses that the Catholic Church “recognizes that in many ways she is linked” with these Communities by a true union in the Holy Spirit.

and this, which is in section 12.

Likewise, we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them also he gives his gifts and graces, and is thereby operative among them with his sanctifying power. Some indeed he has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd.

and then in Section 15

Thanks to ecumenism, our contemplation of “the mighty works of God” (mirabilia Dei) has been enriched by new horizons, for which the Triune God calls us to give thanks: the knowledge that the Spirit is at work in other Christian Communities, the discovery of examples of holiness, the experience of the immense riches present in the communion of saints, and contact with unexpected dimensions of Christian commitment.

I find it telling that Pope John Paul II so easily admitted that the Holy Spirit is at work in Non-Catholic communities and, for whatever reason, Steve refused to say “yes or no” when I asked him that question.

The saying, “Where Peter is, there is the Church.” should be “Where Christ is, by the power of the Holy Spirit, there is the Church”

Since we’re talking about the only Church Jesus established, and gav all His promises to,

In Lumen Gentium

Between sections 11, 12, and 15, is an important statement that doesn’t go away. It will always be there because the Catholic Church, scripture, and Tradition, won’t go away.

14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

So

"Whosoever"therefore, describes everyone, Catholic and non-Catholic. No one is left out of what follows that statement…

 

[mcq72]

said simply

YOU aren’t the Church.

Correct according to CC, where others can only be “communities”.

This making two classes of believers is not biblical nor in early traditions. Communities? Fascinating, yet probably closer to original meaning of ecclessia. Church back then was apostolic primarily. The apostolic community at Rome then changed it mean being subject to its see alone as head jurisdictionally, way beyond one of honor to the other sees.

The father of the Protestant revolt, is the heretic Luther…NOT Jesus

Well the first part is correct…you had a typo with the BUT…should read AND lol

I’m NOT making Rome the city, the main point. I’m referring to the Church of Rome that has it’s position because it is the see and last see of Peter. Just saying Rome as a Catholic, is a short cut for equating the see of Peter.

Exactly steve. I took the shortcut. As you say context, context…but you evaded my point, as to your primary concern. So that these other communities have much in common, and hold to apostles creed is vain due to your addition of subserviance to Rome as now dogmatically pivotal. Gee, too bad the creed forgot to mention that.

Protestantism came about in the 16th century. It is just one of many previous Heresies in History and heresies just don’t go away on this side of eternity.

Protestant is a Catholic given term, as she also hands out judgements of heresies.

We follow Christ apostolically. As Christ was persecuted and called at least heretical by the status quo religious leaders, so were we, and still are by some as yourself.

Because Heresies Don’t completely go away, they morph into what they will do. But they are still heresies and therefore condemned by scripture and Tradition.

Except for the capital T, we could say the same of CC ( and many have).

Problem is

People don’t fear God, NOR do they fear Hell

Now you contradict yourself by mind (soul) reading.

This is where you can infer our specific unGodly sin of rebellion, like Korah. Then I cite your ungodly sin of stiff necked power abuse like Israel killing its prophets?

 

[TULIPed]

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

"Whosoever"therefore, describes everyone, Catholic and non-Catholic. No one is left out of what follows that statement…

Right. We agree on the subject of the sentence. It’s the verb that’s of question. If I remember correctly, you would say that only people with special needs can meet this criteria, i.e. everyone - except those with mental deficiencies - should “know” that the Catholic Church is the gating criteria to salvation. Again - I wonder why they didn’t just say this in the UR:

“Only people with special needs don’t have to be in the Catholic Church to be saved.” Why did they go to the trouble of saying all this:

"The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church."

Why didn’t they just define “knowing” explicitly as you do?

 

[steve-b]

said simply

YOU aren’t the Church.

mcq72:

Correct according to CC, where others can only be “communities”.

This making two classes of believers is not biblical nor in early traditions. Communities? Fascinating, yet probably closer to original meaning of ecclessia. Church back then was apostolic primarily. The apostolic community at Rome then changed it mean being subject to its see alone as head jurisdictionally, way beyond one of honor to the other sees.

Jesus made Peter the leader. That says it all

The father of the Protestant revolt, is the heretic Luther…NOT Jesus

mcq72:

Well the first part is correct…you had a typo with the BUT…should read AND lol

I’ll leave it as is

I’m NOT making Rome the city, the main point. I’m referring to the Church of Rome that has it’s position because it is the see and last see of Peter. Just saying Rome as a Catholic, is a short cut for equating the see of Peter.

-mcq72:

Exactly steve. I took the shortcut. As you say context, context…but you evaded my point, as to your primary concern. So that these other communities have much in common, and hold to apostles creed is vain due to your addition of subserviance to Rome as now dogmatically pivotal. Gee, too bad the creed forgot to mention that.

The Catholic Church is in the Creed. We know where it is headquartered

Protestantism came about in the 16th century. It is just one of many previous Heresies in History and heresies just don’t go away on this side of eternity.

mcq72:

Protestant is a Catholic given term, as she also hands out judgements of heresies.

It describes what is happening… Protest, ergo the one doing it is a protestant

mcq72:

We follow Christ apistolically. As Christ was persecuted and called at least heretical by the status quo religious leaders, so were we, and still are by some as yourself.

wait a minute

​

with 40,000 competing sects? Some started yesterday?. You really think so?

Because Heresies Don’t completely go away, they morph into what they will do. But they are still heresies and therefore condemned by scripture and Tradition.

mcq72:

Except for the capital T, we could say the same of CC ( and many have).

You like making up stories on the fly.

Problem is

People don’t fear God, NOR do they fear Hell

mcq72:

Now you contradict yourself by mind (soul) reading.

I was making a generalized observation.

 

[TULIPed]

with 40,000 competing sects? Some started yesterday?. You really think so?

We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations| National Catholic Register

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

with 40,000 competing sects? Some started yesterday?. You really think so?

We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations| National Catholic Register

I’ll just say,

Using Steve Rays sheet

condensed and highlighted

My Sincere Apology:
So, what do we have? Cut out the Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican and Marginal Christian groups and you end up with 31,121 Protestant and Independent Protestant denominations. So, I sincerely apologize for being 1,879 too high when I said the number was 33,000. That works out to 5.6% in error. You all have my sincere apology (tongue in cheek)

By now, 7 years beyond 2,000 AD used by World Christian Encyclopedia, I suspect my number is now too low and maybe I should raise it to 39,000, the number listed on the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary site .
https://www.catholicconvert.com/blog/2007/08/27/look-for-yourself-how-many-denominations/

I might be a bit high with my number. Or maybe not

 

[lanman87]

Between sections 11, 12, and 15, is an important statement that doesn’t go away. It will always be there because the Catholic Church, scripture, and Tradition, won’t go away.

As a staunch Catholic, how do you reconcile that with Pope John Paul II?

"All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to him,belong by right to the one Church of Christ. The separated brethren also carry out many of the sacred actions of the Christian religion. Undoubtedly, in many ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community, these actions can truly engender a life of grace, and can be rightly described as capable of providing access to the community of salvation"

and

Many elements of great value (eximia), which in the Catholic Church are part of the fullness of the means of salvation and of the gifts of grace which make up the Church, are also found in the other Christian Communities

Wow, the means of salvation and gifts of grace that are found in the Catholic church, are also found in other Christian Communities.

 

[GKMotley]

That’s the place that hosts the folks who produce the WCE.

And they are some confusing folk. Recall what they define a denomination as:

The definition for denominations used in WCT, and also in our publication World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford, 2001) is as follows:

“Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.”

Just passing by, I assure you.