The Universal Church

[mcq72]

It describes what is happening… Protest, ergo the one doing it is a protestant

That would be true if these communities mention the CC or its dogmatic errors in our communities and messages, but we rarely do, if ever thruout the year.

Again it is a Catholic thing , twisting history, again.

We did not protest any doctrine but the civil and church authorities denying once given freedom to follow one’s convictions (" Lutheranism").

Would you protest if tomorrow you could not practice Catholicism under threat of property loss, arrest etc?

Does Jesus condone coercing folks to follow Rome?

 

[ziapueblo]

Can you show me (properly referenced) where the name Orthodox Church first appears in writing ?

We are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Rome used Catholic, we use Orthodox. Same Church, just East and West.

Kata + Holon = “Pertaining to the whole; fullness”. As used by Ignatius of Antioch, the term “Katholike Ekklesia” meant the “fullness of the Church”. There was no notion of universality, but rather than notion that through the Eucharist the totality of the Church was present wherever the Eucharist was being celebrated. The universal dimension of the Church was manifested by the communion of all rightly ordained bishops with each other, not with one particular bishop.

ZP

 

[TULIPed]

Cut out the Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican and Marginal Christian groups and you end up with 31,121 Protestant and Independent Protestant denominations

I would re-read the article I posted Steve. It directly addresses Mr. Ray’s error here:

"However strong the temptation some may have to characterize anything not Catholic or Orthodox as “Protestant,” you can’t do that. All that tells Protestant apologists is that you don’t know what Protestantism is, or what its distinctives are—and they would be right. And why would they take anything you say seriously after that? If you don’t know what Protestantism is, who are you to be talking about its errors? Not only are Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, Unitarians, Prosperity Gospel believers (included among 23,600 Independents and Marginals) not Protestant, they are not even Christian; they adhere to a false Christology. Protestants and Catholics are in agreement about who Christ is; these other groups have other ideas.

And then the WCE somehow comes up with 242 Catholic denominations. That should be a big glaring red flag that it has been a bit—how shall we say?—free and loose with the word “denomination.”

 

[ziapueblo]

Another thing @steve-b, both the East and the West, after 1054, continued to see them selves as Catholic and Orthodox.

And, according to Cardinal Avery Dulles, St Augustine wrote in On True Religion: “Religion is to be sought . . . only among those who are called Catholic or orthodox Christians, that is, guardians of truth and followers of right.” (The Orthodox Imperative: Selected Essays of Avery Cardinal Dulles, S.J.)

ZP

 

[Isaac14]

the term “Katholike Ekklesia” meant the “fullness of the Church”.

Nor was it some sort of registered trademark to denote a particular jurisdictional claim.

The universal dimension of the Church was manifested by the communion of all rightly ordained bishops with each other, not with one particular bishop.

Indeed - seems hard to be universal if communion with one is all that matters.

 

[ziapueblo]

I should add the Orthodox don’t really use “Orthodox” to describe the Church. We understand the Church to be Catholic and Apostolic. The Faith is Orthodox.

ZP

 

[mcq72]

Jesus made Peter the leader. That says it all

Strawman…does not say it all for those to come after.

The Catholic Church is in the Creed. We know where it is headquartered

We most certainly know today

with 40,000 competing sects? Some started yesterday?. You really think so?

Yes , many do indeed follow Jesus, unless of course you think Jesus can’t fit in that box, but in another, yours.

You like making up stories on the fly.

Historical stories are not made on the fly. Why even fables are developed.

I was making a generalized observation.

Well I will agree that CC catechizes pretty good on fearing God and Hell but I believe Protestants catechize better at making the peace between man and God, that is, taking that next step unto new life.

 

[mcq72]

Wow, the means of salvation and gifts of grace that are found in the Catholic church, are also found in other Christian Communities.

Maybe even moreso in my generation. Almost half the Christians I associate with are x Catholic. Most would say they came to spiritual life, even were born again, in P community. Not sure any Catholic community could say that, that half of their congregants are x protestant.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Between sections 11, 12, and 15, is an important statement that doesn’t go away. It will always be there because the Catholic Church, scripture, and Tradition, won’t go away.

As a staunch Catholic, how do you reconcile that with Pope John Paul II?

"All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to him,belong by right to the one Church of Christ. The separated brethren also carry out many of the sacred actions of the Christian religion. Undoubtedly, in many ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community, these actions can truly engender a life of grace, and can be rightly described as capable of providing access to the community of salvation"

and

Many elements of great value (eximia), which in the Catholic Church are part of the fullness of the means of salvation and of the gifts of grace which make up the Church, are also found in the other Christian Communities

Wow, the means of salvation and gifts of grace that are found in the Catholic church, are also found in other Christian Communities.

The fact you don’t properly reference what you write,

I’ll just say,

Elements of great value are found in other Christian Communities. And what are THOSE elements meant to do with individuals in those communities ?

Those elements are meant to lead those individuals and those communities into the CC.

NO WHERE in JPII’s writings do you find, “THOSE” communities and THOSE individuals can stay where they are and everything is presumed just fine, All is presumed A= OK… It’s not there.

If you come away with that opinion, From JPII, or any of the official Church documents, then you have soooo selectively chosen your texts to follow, that you miss the main point of the texts.

LG Lumen Gentium for example, has ~27,486 words in that document

THESE

following 25 words from LG

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

can’t be reconciled with your selective understanding. Nor can they be dismissed

 

[mcq72]

NO WHERE in JPII’s writings do you find, “THOSE” communities and THOSE individuals can stay where they are and everything is presumed just fine, All is presumed A= OK… It’s not there.

You might be right (about such documents), for sometimes I feel even Catholics in the CC don’t have such assurance, that A=OK.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Can you show me (properly referenced) where the name Orthodox Church first appears in writing ?

We are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Rome used Catholic, we use Orthodox. Same Church, just East and West.

Kata + Holon = “Pertaining to the whole; fullness”. As used by Ignatius of Antioch, the term “Katholike Ekklesia” meant the “fullness of the Church”. There was no notion of universality, but rather than notion that through the Eucharist the totality of the Church was present wherever the Eucharist was being celebrated. The universal dimension of the Church was manifested by the communion of all rightly ordained bishops with each other, not with one particular bishop.

ZP

Nice try

I asked, where is the name Orthodox Church first seen in writing?

As for Catholic Church
Acts 9:31

ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς

Translation:
ἐκκλησία / ekklesia= Strong's Greek: 1577. ἐκκλησία (ekklésia) -- an assembly, a (religious) congregation , = church
καθ’ / kata = http://bibleapps.com/greek/2596.htm ,=according to
ὅλης / holos= http://bibleapps.com/greek/3650.htm , = whole, universal
τῆς / hon= http://bibleapps.com/greek/3588.htm , = the
= the Kataholos Church = the Catholic Church.

And we see the name Catholic Church in writing, from ECF Bp Ignatius, direct disciple of St John. Ignatius was ordained Bp by the apostles ~ 68 a.d.

So

Again,

When is the first time we see the name “Orthodox Church” in writing ?

 

[Isaac14]

Again,

When is the first time we see the name “Orthodox Church” in writing ?

Steve, you clearly have something else in mind when asking this question beyond just having us answer. What will the answer prove to folks reading this thread?

I know you’ve pushed this before in a number of other threads and both Catholics and Orthodox have shut you down saying the question is irrelevant and doesn’t add anything to the Catholic/Orthodox discussion . There wasn’t a need to separately identify East and West formally until after the separation was fully realized, so a written reference proves nothing.

 

[lanman87]

Those elements are meant to lead those individuals and those communities into the CC

Do you agree with this statement?

Who, then, can be saved? Catholics can be saved if they believe the Word of God as taught by the Church and if they obey the commandments. Other Christians can be saved if they submit their lives to Christ and join the community where they think he wills to be found.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

NO WHERE in JPII’s writings do you find, “THOSE” communities and THOSE individuals can stay where they are and everything is presumed just fine, All is presumed A= OK… It’s not there.

You might be right (about such documents), for sometimes I feel even Catholics in the CC don’t have such assurance, that A=OK.

True. Just being Catholic is not enough. A Catholic must live the faith to the end. Catholics who don’t and die in mortal sin, will go to hell just like anyone else in mortal sin.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Those elements are meant to lead those individuals and those communities into the CC

Do you agree with this statement?

Who, then, can be saved? Catholics can be saved if they believe the Word of God as taught by the Church and if they obey the commandments. Other Christians can be saved if they submit their lives to Christ and join the community where they think he wills to be found.

I’ll just say

“CAN” ≠ “WILL”

As for me, speaking for myself, "can" isn’t good enough for me. Especially given all the bad consequences mentioned over and over again in scripture for on e being in division

 

[lanman87]

I’ll just say

“CAN” ≠ “WILL”

As for me, speaking for myself, "can" isn’t good enough for me. .

Isn’t that what Catholics teach about everyone. That everyone can be saved but not everyone will, and that nobody really knows if you will be saved until you die?

 

[lanman87]

I’ll just say

“CAN” ≠ “WILL”

As for me, speaking for myself, "can" isn’t good enough for me. Especially given all the bad consequences mentioned over and over again in scripture for on e being in division

Plus, you seem pretty set that folks in other Christian communities can’t be saved because they don’t have the Eucharist and other sacraments.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Again,

When is the first time we see the name “Orthodox Church” in writing ?

Steve, you clearly have something else in mind when asking this question beyond just having us answer. What will the answer prove to folks reading this thread?

I know you’ve pushed this before in a number of other threads and both Catholics and Orthodox have shut you down saying the question is irrelevant and doesn’t add anything to the Catholic/Orthodox discussion . There wasn’t a need to separately identify East and West formally until after the separation was fully realized, so a written reference proves nothing.

Division / schism / heresies / etc is always about and over, authority and obedience to authority

Example: One true Church with Peter as the leader

Jesus made Peter the greatest among the apostles re: authority.

SO

another side to the test Jesus lays out?

Can "THEY"
the apostles and all those who come to faith through them, remain PERFECTLY ONE under that design Jesus laid out Himself personally, with Peter as the leader … after He resurrected back to heaven?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

I’ll just say

“CAN” ≠ “WILL”

As for me, speaking for myself, "can" isn’t good enough for me. .

Isn’t that what Catholics teach about everyone. That everyone can be saved but not everyone will, and that nobody really knows if you will be saved until you die?

The reality is actually tighter than that. Jesus saves ALL who are going to be saved,. No argument from anyone here on that. Problem is, Jesus said it’s only a "few" who will be saved. Meaning everyone else isn’t saved. YIKES!

SO

Just thinking out loud, how can one who knows they are in division, and argue for staying in division, …

THEN

with 2040+ posts in this forum so far, on this subject

it makes Paul’s warning to BpTitus prophetic

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

I’ll just say

“CAN” ≠ “WILL”

As for me, speaking for myself, "can" isn’t good enough for me. Especially given all the bad consequences mentioned over and over again in scripture for on e being in division

Plus, you seem pretty set that folks in other Christian communities can’t be saved because they don’t have the Eucharist and other sacraments.

Me? Nope! I quoted my source.

Jesus is the one who made the do this or else statement
HERE

And as we know, reading on, His own disciples left Jesus over this. They said to God’s face, who could believe this and they left Him not to return to Him.

Think of all the people to this day, who die not doing that "do this or else" statement of Jesus?

Look how many people have written His statement off as hyperbole, symbolism, or nuts…etc.