Me either. There’s not a doubt in my mind that I have a real and saving relationship with Christ. I hope the same is true for you.
Completely agree - which is why I’m confident in my relationship with Christ. Without him, I wouldn’t still be married (or married in the first place), I wouldn’t have the relationship I do with my kids, I wouldn’t have overcome much of the sin in my life, it goes on and on. Thanks be to God.
Ignatius:
Apostle and Bishops are different offices. Apostles were appointed by Christ himself. Bishops/elders/presbyters (all the same thing) were, in some cases, appointed by the apostles, and in some cases elected and appointed by the local church. When a new local Christian assembly sprang up due to lay missions then that local church would appoint elders that oversaw the affairs of the local assembly.
It does if the “church” preaches a different gospel. Gal 1:8-9. The minute it starts to preach a different gospel it ceases to be the church.
We hold the same confession about who Jesus is. What we disagree about is not Christ. It is how mankind accesses the grace and salvation of Christ. Those are not the same things.
Confession/belief/faith are not the same thing as baptism. To say otherwise is to read something into the text that doesn’t exist. They happen separately with belief/faith/proclamation/confession coming first. We come to faith in Christ, proclaim our faith publicly, and are then baptized.
Nobody, and that is my point. You are Catholic because you choose be Catholic. I’m not Catholic because I choose to not be Catholic. My reasons are that I believe Catholicism has many man made doctrines and practices that weren’t part of the deposit of faith handed on by Christ and the apostles. And those doctrines and practices aren’t part of what I’ve heard called little “t” tradition but are part of the big “T” tradition, meaning it is dogma that must be followed.
You can’t separate the leaders of the church (Priest, Bishops, and Popes) from the church itself. The people are the church. Many of those leaders were complicit with local rulers to arrest and kill “heretics”. Many of these church leaders where encouraged and praised for there role in these murders by other church leaders. If they were truly going against the teachings of the church then they should have been disciplined and removed from church leadership.
That belief is a creation of man that developed over time as Popes gained power. Pope are human just like anyone else and are prone to the same sins as anyone else. Like it or not Peter is dead. The idea that the successors to Peter have some special power handed on by Peter is another creation of man and was not part of the deposit of faith handed on by the Christ and the apostles.
Mormons don’t confess that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the World. At least not the same Christ that both Catholics and Protestants profess. Mormons created their own gospel with their own Jesus and are imitating Christian morals and culture.
Catholic, in the first instance, does not mean “universal”, but “fullness”. As used by Ignatius of Antioch, it meant that, wherever a bishop ordained in the apostolic succession celebrated the Eucharist, assisted by his presbyters and deacons, surrounded by his people, there was the fullness of the Church of God, for the Eucharist is the Body of Christ, and as Christ is one, so, too, the Eucharist is one, even when celebrated in many places at once; therefore, wherever there is the Eucharist, there is the Church. The Eucharist MAKES the Church. The universal dimension of the Church is manifested by the participation of ALL bishops in the same Eucharist, not the recognition of one particular bishop by all the others.
No comparison to " no salvation outside the Catholic Church", in our times…Jesus Christ is in Orthodox and Protestant Churches also, the Spirit of grace and salvation moving…this is acknowledged lately by the CC, so not sure the Ignatius quote is apples to apples to the later " no salvation outside CC" quote.
The way I (and many Catholics as well - including Catholic Priests) read Unitatis Redintegratio (“UR”), I would agree. However you will find a number of folks on CAF (@steve-b where are you?) who would disagree.
Let’s Keep in mind,steve-b:
I think the Orthodox interpret less privately than CC…they dont overdefine, which can be seen as “private”.
,mcq72:
The way I (and many Catholics as well - including Catholic Priests) read Unitatis Redintegratio (“UR”), I would agree. However you will find a number of folks on CAF (@steve-b where are you?) who would disagree.
Here I am.Oh shoot, …Ah, never mind. The horse is dead. Just jerking your chain a bit for old times sake.
If you have the time,steve-b:
Me either. There’s not a doubt in my mind that I have a real and saving relationship with Christ. I hope the same is true for you.
Completely agree - which is why I’m confident in my relationship with Christ. Without him, I wouldn’t still be married (or married in the first place), I wouldn’t have the relationship I do with my kids, I wouldn’t have overcome much of the sin in my life, it goes on and on. Thanks be to God.
Well two related points. One questions the legitimacy that the Roman Catholic Church as it is today, or at time of eastern schism and later reformers, is one and the same as Paul’s or Nicene creed’s church.
As I like to say, “takes two to tango”.
Different titles. The Apostles held both. The Apostles were all, simultaneously, bishops.De_Maria:
Apostle and Bishops are different offices.
True. The Twelve Apostles were appointed by Christ, himself.
All true, and besides the point. The Apostles were all bishops.
Notice that this does not advise you to go rogue. The one being anathematized is the rogue, the individual, who is preaching a different gospel. The Church has anathematized these sorts of rogues from the time of the Apostles.
Yes, we disagree about Christ. You claim that Jesus said, “It is finished” and meaning that you have nothing to do. Whereas, we believe that Jesus meant that the once for all sacrifice was finished and we must now join into it, with Him.
Who said it was?
Agreed.
. . . . So, what you’re saying is that when you proclaim your faith in Christ, publically, the first time, that is the last time you will do so. You won’t do it again, in Baptism. You won’t do it again, when you go to your assembly the next week. Nor at home, when you get there. You will only do it once and therefore, it isn’t possible that a man can proclaim his faith in Jesus Christ while being Baptized.
And that is what you believe IN SPITE of the clear Teaching of Scripture. Because you interpret Scripture in the absence of the Traditions of Jesus Christ which your communion discarded. Thus, you interpret according to your man made traditions which your communion invented to set aside the Word of God.
But Kings and Queens are not. And it is they who established the laws which led to the burning of heretics.
Since those Kings and Queens were following the prescriptions of the Old Testament in meting out “death sentences” for heretics, the Church simply attempted to convert the sinner from the error of his ways.
. . . . But the Catholic Church wields the power of life and death over mankind. She has not used it since the time of the Apostles (Acts 5). But she is authorized by Jesus Christ.