The Universal Church

[Lenten_ashes]

We are united in the Eucharist, sure.

And this quote is emphasizing the importance of a validly ordained Bishop…so everything, including the Eucharist, may be valid.

But let’s not try and change the wording. It does say Catholic.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

They go to confession just like us. They make stupid remarks that are most definitely not inspired by God. (especially this current Pope)

Nobody would dispute that.

But here is where Sola Scriptura fails and there is no referee to decide who is right. Because we say there is most definitely scriptural evidence for Peter holding a position of primacy and that apostolic succession is scriptural.

No doubt the Church and governments later joined forces and became a theocracy of sorts…probably granting her too much power for her own good.

But at the end of the day…it was the Pope who initiated and ratified the NT canon. It was the Pope and the college of Bishops that routinely fought against error like Arianism and other heresies. I think the first 33 Popes were martyred for the faith. Humanely speaking, they were the fabric that held true Christianity together. I wouldn’t refer to them as having ‘special powers’, but I would proclaim the Spirit has been with them throughout the ages. The Church does not survive 2,000 years without Him guiding the Pope.

 

[ziapueblo]

But let’s not try and change the wording. It does say Catholic.

Again, Kata + Holon = “Pertaining to the whole; fullness”. As used by Ignatius of Antioch, the term “Katholike Ekklesia” meant the “fullness of the Church”. There was no notion of universality, but rather than notion that through the Eucharist the totality of the Church was present wherever the Eucharist was being celebrated. The universal dimension of the Church was manifested by the communion of all rightly ordained bishops with each other, not with one particular bishop.

ZP

 

[mcq72]

Anti-Catholic is enough for me. And, as I see it, it’s off topic. If you want to continue in this, start another thread.

Very well, back to the thread then.( we will abandon as negative propaganda any thought of civil and church powers co mingling, joined, married, a type of theocracy, a type of theology of spreading and exercising His kingdom on earth, even ushering in His return)

So…I believe "those that have faith in Christ, have been made new creations, are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and worship and serve God by loving God and loving others, " are “members of the universal church/the body of Christ, even if they are not part of the Catholic church and worship/serve elsewhere.”

 

[mcq72]

But here is where Sola Scriptura fails and there is no referee to decide who is right

Does not make sense. SS does not deny a referee. In fact it legitimizes referees to the extent that they rightly discern the word of God when " refereeing". It is the norm for bishops, patriarchs, even popes and councils and theologians and disciples.

SS has nothing to do with forms of governance, save it is the God breathed written norm for all of them.

I have yet to see any church decree something that then say it is unbiblical, but rather give scriptural support for decree.

To me SS really says that scripture is God breathed unconditionally but church decrees are conditional upon being scriptural.

So what a council or a pope decrees is not exactly as if God himself spoke it…to believe otherwise is to add to scripture and perhaps wrongly justify a decree that is meant to be more a step of faith.

 

[lanman87]

Do Catholics meet your personal criteria as Spirit filled Christians?

Those who’s hearts have been changed from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh do. Just being a Catholic or Baptist or Methodist doesn’t mean you are a Christian. You can be any of those things and follow the moral code, practices, and culture and still have a heart of stone.

 

[lanman87]

First, is it because you don’t believe that Jesus could protect anyone from committing error or sins?

He could, but He gives us all the freedom to choose to sin and even Paul said

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 1 Corinthians 13:12

Paul didn’t claim to know everything and neither should we.

 

[steve-b]

Here’s a short, off-the-cuff stab. First I would say that the verses from Titus you cited - 3:10-11 are associated with an interesting preamble in verse 9:

"9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. "

I say interesting because, clearly Paul himself didn’t TOTALLY avoid controversy (or certainly quarrels about the law). From Galatians 2:11-12:

“11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.”

But combine

Paul’s instruction to Bp Titus, on αἱρετικὸν hairetikos , Be sure to Open the link to see the offense, that Paul is addressing.

And

the Context in Galatians, addressing Peter not eating with the (the circumcision party) who came from James, because they insisted on circumcising gentiles, (newbies) to the faith. In the council of Jerusalem, (Acts ) Peter said circumcision was not necessary. And it shows Peter was trying to pastor the gentiles, while the Judaiszers were causing major issues with the newbies to the faith.

in extension

Peter pastored newbies in their faith, and out of fear that he might lose them, did what he did (not eat with the circumcision party) so like the Good Shepherd, would not lose ANYONE given to him.

One needs to ask then

what did Paul do?

Acts 16:1-3 Paul took a disciple named Timothy… and on account of the Jews of that region, (the circumcision party that came from James) Paul had Timothy a gentile, circumcised. Then
Acts 18:18, & Acts 21: 18-26 Paul shaved his head, purified himself and made sacrifice according to the Mosaic law, which he had previously said is no longer to be followed AND he had Timothy a gentile circumcised.

Catch that?

Paul rebukes Peter for not eating with those in the (circumcision party)while giving himself a pass on WAY MORE stuff. (I like using heavy duty deep terms)

So

Paul actually learned from Peter in this whole exercise

How you say

because Paul later in his travels explains HIS behavior by saying, to the Gentiles he becomes as a Gentile, to win them over, as to the Jews he became a Jew so that some might be saved. [1 cor 9:20] Hey… Isn’t that exactly what Peter did earlier with the gentiles and was rebuked by Paul for it? Yes. And Paul embraces this behavior for himself..

TULIPed:

“But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”

Yet Jesus wants perfect union with. ZERO divisions. And the consequences mentioned for that division, in scripture, I wanted your opinion on.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Your thoughts on Paul’s warning to Titus, regarding αἱρετικὸν hairetikos

Well two related points. One questions the legitimacy that the Roman Catholic Church as it is today, or at time of eastern schism and later reformers, is one and the same as Paul’s or Nicene creed’s church.

OK

What’s more legitimate,

Jesus promised, the Church He builds on Peter and those in union with Peter, that not even the gates of hell will [prevail against it

OR

heretics and schismatics, providing all the divisions that occurred over time, FROM Jesus plan, all claiming they are justified for their divisions

For me, I’ll take the promises from Jesus.

mcq72:

Two, if it is, what is a disciples, a bishops responsibility if said church aquires not just bad practices but bad doctrine? Wouldn’t be the first time that God’s authority or light to the world acquired some leaven, and discerned by other believers.

I point back to what’s more legitimate, … above.

I would add,

Jesus never promised a sinless Church.

 

[Wannano]

That is a new thought…or doesn’t infallible mean sinless?

 

[TULIPed]

I know you know that over on the Reformed website, there are a whole bunch of my fellow Calvinists making exactly the same argument in reverse, i.e. calling Catholics a bunch of unsaved heretics (and frankly much worse, I’m embarrassed to say). And I would say the same thing to them - this does nothing to respond to Christ’s call to be peacemakers. I know you like to just point people towards “information” and “what they do with it is up to them” Steve. I would challenge you that this is not what our Lord meant by “peacemakers”.

In any case, you and I will continue to agree to disagree on this passage. I would say thought that, in spite of what your implication is on my relationship with our King, I can see and appreciate yours.

On this Thanksgiving day though, I am thankful for you and your wisdom - you always make me think. Iron sharpens iron. Happy Thanksgiving (if you’re in the US - and even if you’re not )

 

[steve-b]

To me SS really says that scripture is God breathed unconditionally but church decrees are conditional upon being scriptural.

While scripture is God breathed,

It’s still the old question,

There is no inspired bibliography, no inspired index of books, that tells us which writings are scripture and which aren’t…

Someone had to make that decision

mcq72:

So what a council or a pope decrees is not exactly as if God himself spoke it.…to believe otherwise is to add to scripture and perhaps wrongly justify a decree that is meant to be more a step of faith.

On the contrary

to believe the authority of a council or a pope, is scriptural, AND following the faith. Especially considering, how scripture was decided on.

Example

One of the early writings from ~ 170 a.d.

Muratorian canon

excerpt

it is yet shown-i.e., by this sevenfold writing-that there is one Church spread abroad through the whole world. And John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes only to seven churches, yet addresses all. He wrote, besides these, one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in simple personal affection and love indeed; but yet these are hallowed in the esteem of the Catholic Church, and in the regulation of ecclesiastical discipline. There are also in circulation one to the Laodiceans, and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, and addressed against the heresy of Marcion; and there are also several others which cannot be received into the Catholic Church, for it is not suitable for gall to be mingled with honey.

From: Muratorian Canon (Roberts-Donaldson Translation)

 

[De_Maria]

He could, but He gives us all the freedom to choose to sin and even Paul said

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 1 Corinthians 13:12

How does that address the Teaching that the Pope is protected from Teaching error?

Paul didn’t claim to know everything and neither should we.

Who has claimed to know everything? However, although you seem to put St. Paul above Christ, it is Christ whom we follow.

Matthew 5:48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And, he follows Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

 

[steve-b]

I know you know that over on the Reformed website, there are a whole bunch of my fellow Calvinists making exactly the same argument in reverse, i.e. calling Catholics a bunch of unsaved heretics (and frankly much worse, I’m embarrassed to say).

Yeah, I know.

TULIPed:

And I would say the same thing to them - this does nothing to respond to Christ’s call to be peacemakers. I know you like to just point people towards "information" and “what they do with it is up to them” Steve. I would challenge you that this is not what our Lord meant by “peacemakers”.

Yet knowledge is important.

How important?

1 example out of many available

Peter puts knowledge 2nd on his list of 7 musts to add to our faith HERE

OR what happens if one won’t do it?

One will fall. Which is not good for THEM

TULIPed:

In any case, you and I will continue to agree to disagree on this passage. I would say thought that, in spite of what your implication is on my relationship with our King, I can see and appreciate yours.

On this Thanksgiving day though, I am thankful for you and your wisdom - you always make me think. Iron sharpens iron. Happy Thanksgiving (if you’re in the US - and even if you’re not )

I’m on my way to mass. Also having our wine blessed, that we’ll use today. Prayers will be ascending for you and your family as well

Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[mcq72]

Someone had to make that decision

Correct, fallible men determining what is infallible scripture…of course guided by an infallible Holy Ghost.

 

[TULIPed]

Thank you my friend.

 

[mcq72]

to believe the authority of a council or a pope, is scriptural, AND following the faith. Especially considering, how scripture was decided on.

Yes agree, and as I said, all an excercise of faith. We just differ on the infallibility of authorities beyond scripture.

Happy Thanksgiving steve.

 

[mcq72]

Yet knowledge is important.

To which i may add a thanksgiving for the knowledge the CC lays as seeds in the hearts of young ones, both in word and ritual, fundamentals of the faith, yet being a conundrum for many, not leading to life without overcoming some of her teachings later on.

I have seen snow “fall” and rise at the same time, tho in two different streams. Like a Sampson riddle I ask where can you see snow fall and rise at the same time?

I was in a high rise office building watching thru its large windows one of those beautiful snowfalls, with big flakes and no wind. I then noticed something strangely out of sync. The snow close to the windows was rising straightup, from up to about ten feet away from building, and beyond that the snow was falling normally. Pretty cool I thought. I imagine the radiant heat coming off the mostly glass building formed a rising current, taking the light flakes straight up as rapidly as it fell in the distance. Like an air convection current, with snowflakes.

So I guess being close to the heat source makes it rise and being far away lets things fall. And only being in the heat source could you probably see both currents, the rising current being very narrow to see thru it, to the wider expanse of falling snow. You could not see this phenomonem from far away thru all the falling snow.

Somehow this ties in to knowledge and my conundrum (of one planting some of the most powerful seeds in the world and yet hindering its sprouting at the same time).

Again sooo thankful for Catholic seeds…and for those good feet that would come to later water.

 

[De_Maria]

I know you know that over on the Reformed website, there are a whole bunch of my fellow Calvinists making exactly the same argument in reverse, i.e. calling Catholics a bunch of unsaved heretics (and frankly much worse, I’m embarrassed to say).

Well, I hope that none of us are calling Calvinists “unsaved” anything. But, I see where you can get that impression.

And I would say the same thing to them - this does nothing to respond to Christ’s call to be peacemakers.

Well, yes and no. There is a big broad line which is frequently crossed, but if we can stay on the right side of that line, some conflict may lead to peace making. Or at least, better understanding.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

I know you like to just point people towards “information” and “what they do with it is up to them” Steve. I would challenge you that this is not what our Lord meant by “peacemakers”.

What did St. Paul mean when he said:

2 Tim 4: 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

and besides, the Catholic Church has now called lay people to evangelize.

In any case, you and I will continue to agree to disagree on this passage. I would say thought that, in spite of what your implication is on my relationship with our King, I can see and appreciate yours.

On this Thanksgiving day though, I am thankful for you and your wisdom - you always make me think. Iron sharpens iron. Happy Thanksgiving (if you’re in the US - and even if you’re not )

And you also.

 

[TULIPed]

Thanks @De_Maria