Because the Pope is just like Paul and just like everyone else. The Pope sees in a mirror dimly. The Pope knows in part.
I’m not putting Paul above anyone. I’m just using his example of not fully understanding the things of God.
We don’t know the mind of God, we can only speculate. For whatever reason, God decided that they needed to die. God also chose to do what he did as an object lesson to the church and had it recorded in scripture for us all to have a record of what happened. At any rate, it supports what I said about God taking people out instead of the church. Peter never put them on trial or ordered their death or supported a government who did.
So, you don’t believe that the Pauline epistles are inerrant? I can’t write a single page without committing an error. If St. Paul is just like me, he’s error prone and could not have written the Epistles.
That’s why the Holy Spirit is guiding the Catholic Church into ALL truth.
That’s not true. In fact, if that is a Protestant doctrine, it shows a complete lack of faith. We do know the mind of God, it has been revealed that God is a loving and merciful God.
This is revealed:
True. But it only reinforced the authority which Jesus Christ gave to the Church.
Not sure how you twist this to support anything you’ve previously said. It is a clear incident depicting the words which Jesus conveyed to St. Peter:
The NT does not purport to show everything which St. Peter did. But it is clear from the NT that the Church regularly anathematized and expelled those who did not obey her commands. As per Jesus instruction:
I believe that Paul wrote inerrant what God revealed to Him. I believe what Paul was saying is that God hasn’t revealed everything there is to know to him and the other apostles but that it will all be revealed when we are in the presence of God face to face.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! Romans 11:33
No doubt, but those people were never put to death by the church. God killed Ananias and Sapphira. Not Peter and not the church. If God decides someones sin warrants death then that is His call to make. Not the church. If the secular governments are unjustly putting people to death then the church should do everything possible to stop it from happening.
And His church is the Ekklesia (those called out by God, or the assembly of God’s people) which is a Spiritual kingdom and not of this world. That is what Ekklesia means, not the later definition given it by the church in the middle ages.
The problem with that idea is that the process of deeper understanding and guidance into all truth is demonstrated in Christian history. For example, the Scriptures reveal the existence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But it is the Church which revealed the entire truth in that mystery when combatting those heresies which claimed that the Father is God but the Son is not and other such errors. It is the Church, which guided by the Holy Spirit, defined the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity. You will not find that Doctrine defined in Scripture.
That is why the Holy Spirit is leading us into all truth.
And the Holy Spirit continues to guide is into all truth.
Nor in history, will you ever find the Church putting anyone to death.
On the contrary, it is evidently clear, from the Old Testament, that God has given mankind, not just the Church, the right to decide if someone should die.
And it does. But heresy has been punished by death by the authority of God, from the time of Moses.
That is what Ekklesia also means. When Jesus said, “take him to the Church”, He didn’t say, “get in your space ship and go to the other world.” He fully expected you to take him to the Magisterium, the authorities He had appointed within the Church and in the future, those who had taken their place.
We would like any authority that is biblical, that is Christ like. Excommunication is biblical. Maybe even punishment, chastisement for sin that may affect health of believing community. But, the bible draws the line when enforcing unity even in minor doctrines (when to fast, what to eat, when to honor Easter, exact understanding of communion or baptism…in short having different convictions outside of Christology).
Yes, that would be an extreme for some, but none here in these discussions want that. Some cite the church as thru office of pope, the vicar of Christ, can demand total subservience, total authority from every creature, as if we bring in the kingdom, evey knee bowing, before His coming, by such force.
Does the end justify the means?
Sad when we quibble over things beyond the oneness of being baptized into Christ.
The RCC did add to scripture --it’s called the New Testament
In Matt 18 Jesus says take it to THE church…not a Church, THE Church.
The discussion I was responding to was not centered on the people within or that comprise the Church but rather the development and assumption of bad doctrine within the organization. Keeping that in mind, I was interested in the statement that “Jesus never promised a sinless Church” which said in that context would indicate that the Church has not remained sinless. In which ways would you identify that the Catholic Church has sinned?
Infallible ≠ sinless
Seems you just put massive doubt then, that scripture could be infallible?steve-b:
Correct, fallible men determining what is infallible scripture…of course guided by an infallible Holy Ghost.
I have not put massive doubt on infallibility of scripture. That could only be possible if one believed the church/ council to be as unconditionally infallible, an equal to, God breathed written Word .
Never said that. Not black and white, either or.
Yes and no. The scripture had a lot to do with the Judaizing problem…James did not pick it out of thin air…the Jews had always debated wether to circumcise gentiles or not, for centuries…indeed God had already spoken to Peter and Paul on the unnecessity of circumcision of Gentiles…the scriptures speaks of a time when Gentiles will be clean or partakers of God’s promises…it does not say Gentiles will become Jews ( with its law or circumcision)… it says Gentiles and Jews will be partakers, but as Peter rightly said, thru Christ…anyways all of Acts is added scripture, but as scripture for us.
My answer stands.De_Maria:
The discussion I was responding to was not centered on the people within or that comprise the Church but rather the development and assumption of bad doctrine within the organization. Keeping that in mind, I was interested in the statement that “Jesus never promised a sinless Church” which said in that context would indicate that the Church has not remained sinless. In which ways would you identify that the Catholic Church has sinned?
Amen…I am not as institutional bent on the particular conduit…that is we sometimes appoint, ordain, and sometimes for sure God picks and we oblige, such as Saul of Tarsus.
Understand …lotta leaven out there…hard to see it in our own churches…yes CC has stood strong against todays liberalism…yet one needs to ask how do I know that without my church having councils, or as centralized heirarchy of authority as you have? That is how am I not confused about abortion, gay issues, ordination issues, and remain theologically fundamental, without your supposed keys?