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lanman87
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I googled the Florence council.
They were convicted by the Holy Spirit to correct the mistakes of the Catholic Church. They were following God instead of man.
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mcq72
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What do you mean, “as it turns out,”… did Jesus come back and give his imprimatur?
What, that a better authority system of governance doesn’t saves us?
Better than sectarianism or haughtiness?
Yes. It can mean that but also this:
“the judgment arrived at by most of those concerned”.
Most is not all or unanimous.
I can vote for something though not be in total agreement but enough for benefit of solidarity toward higher ends.
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DissidentMantis
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Absolutely not. Bro how can you even ask this?
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steve-b
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Well,steve-b:
I googled the Florence council.
They were convicted by the Holy Spirit to correct the mistakes of the Catholic Church. They were following God instead of man.
let’s look at the word convicted
Ya need to open these links
Jesus said the following about
the HS Jn 16:7-15 RSVCE - Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it - Bible Gateway
AND
Jesus also said
what He wants John 17:20-23 RSVCE - “I do not pray for these only, but - Bible Gateway
SO
Given Jesus own words above, what He wants, and about what the HS does and who the HS receives information from that is passed on
Do you
honestly think people NOT in His Church, the Catholic Church, so to be clear, they are already violating Our Lord’s command to be perfectly one with His Church, can THEN claim the HS is telling THEM to believe opposite what He tells the only Church Jesus established, to believe and teach?
Better take a better look at those quotes
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steve-b
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“As it turns out” once all is seen, pope Damasus was right.steve-b:
What do you mean, “as it turns out,”… did Jesus come back and give his imprimatur?
AND
consensus is synonymous with unanimity,
isn’t that a distinction without a difference.?
I was just dealing with a dictionary definition
most and unanimous ≠ all.
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lanman87
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The definition of Church is not man made organization with man made rules and man made traditions. The definition of Church is those who follow Christ. Wherever they may be found. Catholicism doesn’t have a monopoly on Christianity.
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De_Maria
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The Council of Florence got it right. And, they list the same books that are in the Latin Vulgate, which was put together in the 4th century. There exist other Christian councils before the 4th century and none of them mention the 66 book canon of the Protestants.steve-b:
Well, if that is the case then the council of Florence got it wrong as well.
Furthermore, it is well known that Luther adopted the OT canon of the Jews. While, Catholics adopted the Septuagint canon used by Jesus Christ.
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steve-b
Guest
You just described Protetstantism to a T completely manmade
The mass in scripture, you as a Protestant can’t fulfill this
Heb 10: (all emphasis mine) Heb 10:19-31 RSVCE - A Call to Persevere - Therefore, - Bible Gateway
24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment,and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?***30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Unpacking that
deliberate Failure to meet on the Day, = a sin with huge consequences
“the Day” = the LORD’S DAY / Sunday/ the Day Our Lord Resurrected
What are they doing when they meet?
“sacrifice for sin”, & “blood of the covenant” = the words Our Lord spoke instituting the
Eucharist Matthew 26:28 , https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt+26%3A28&version=RSVCE
Mark 14:24 , https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+14:24&version=RSVCE
i.e. They are celebrating the Mass, the Eucharist whwen they meet
AND
those who deliberately fail to celebrate Mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday after being given the knowledge of truth,
◦ there no longer remains, a sacrifice for sin nor blood of the covenant for THEM
◦ They Spurn the Son of God
◦ They outrage the spirit of grace
◦ a fearful prospect of judgement awaits Them
◦ and a fury of fire will consume these adversaries
NOW
Re: sin
Does that sound like it’s only a suggestion to attend Mass on Sunday, or a command?
Does it sound like a little itty bitty venial sin to deliberately miss Mass on Sunday or a whopper of a mortal sin?
Protestants don’t have the Eucharist no matter the stripe. No valid ordinations, no valid priesthood, no valid consecrations in any Protestant organization.
Ya know who is completely invested in your argument of division and keeping it going?
Jesus said it’s SATAN Lk 22:31
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mcq72
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mcq72
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Really ? Do we know this, have a picture of Him with Septuagint under His arms?
Yes, He used Septuagint
Yes, He used Hebrew scriptures.
It wasnt like when the Pope asked Jerome to translate the bible , when a pagan king asked for translation of religious writings of Jewish people for his collection/ library.
After all, even the CC does not include all of Septuagint books, which even in themselves may vary.
Yes, He used Hebrew bible.
In my opinion, we can not assume that when one " uses parts of Septuagint , that they condone understanding that it is OT Hebrew bible in Greek solely.
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mcq72
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You wrongly unpack that, in my opinion steve…you miss entire context of judaiazers taking their spoils and returning to Judaism, and wrongly apply it to people who remain in faith but dont go to mass every single sunday to avoid a mortal sin, or P,'s not having legit mass etc.
I see spurning the blood of the covenant, the son of God as folks leaving the faith, not remaining in faith but weakly or carnally. So missing sunday may be carnal if one is a Christian , but you can only spurn
God by departing from faith., as indeed is still the custom of some today. Otherwise how can you put to a carnal Christian he has no means of forgiveness, as if he went to another religion, which the warning is meant for ?
Total misconstruction in my opinion, forcing many to legally perform duties before acquiring a love for it (Him).
Agree steve…not per your definition of Eucharist, but we do eucharist, give thanks for His blood in new covenant, as first church did.
Well carnality and Satan are kindred.
Well I am reminded of carnal apostles who had to be corrected by Jesus when apostles were skeptical of believers/ disciples who didn’t hang out with apostles.
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steve-b
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If I can add this reference as an explanation to De Marias’s pointDe_Maria:
Really ? Do we know this, have a picture of Him with Septuagint under His arms?
Yes, He used Septuagint
Yes, He used Hebrew scriptures.
Consider the following In Which Passages Does Jesus Quote the Septuagint, and Where Does the New Testament Allude to the Septuagint? | Catholic Answers
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lanman87
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Protestantism has cast aside the man made musing and creations of Catholicism and returned to the Deposit of Faith that was taught by Christ and the Apostles.
You are just wrong about “The Day” being Sunday. “The Day” refers to the Judgement day of the Lord. The usage is exactly the same as 1 Corinthians 3:13
each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed
The Eucharist celebration isn’t a sacrifice for sin. You totally ignore earlier in the chapter…
11 Under the old covenant, the priest stands and ministers before the altar day after day, offering the same sacrifices again and again, which can never take away sins. 12 But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand. 13 There he waits until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet. 14 For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:11-14 NLT
We no longer have the need to have a priest offer sacrifices on our behalf day after day, year after year.
Well, I wouldn’t call it the mass, that was a later term. I would say they met every Sunday, worshiped and celebrated God through Song, Preaching, Prayer and the Eucharist. They didn’t have priest, the had elders and the “President of the elders” was responsible for the Eucharist meal. (Which was a Thanksgiving meal not a sacrifice).
You changed what the Bible says there Steve.
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mcq72
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“For those who may not know, the Septuagint was the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament”…
Disagree with this…a purposeful misrepresentation of the facts in my opinion.
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steve-b
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The reference to Hebrews I quoted for lanman72… "not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some for context HERE is not coming from me, it’s from the Church who was there. The Catholic Church sees that section, as participating in the mass… the Euchariststeve-b:
You wrongly unpack that, in my opinion steve……you miss entire context of judaiazers taking their spoils and returning to Judaism, and wrongly apply it to people who remain in faith but dont go to mass every single sunday to avoid a mortal sin, or P,'s not having legit mass etc.
I see spurning the blood of the covenant, the son of God as folks leaving the faith, not remaining in faith but weakly or carnally. So missing sunday may be carnal if one is a Christian , but you can only spurn
God by departing from faith., as indeed is still the custom of some today. Otherwise how can you put to a carnal Christian he has no means of forgiveness, as if he went to another religion, which the warning is meant for ?
Where you ask?
From the CCC
2177 & 2178
Based on the consequences described, It’s a command
As far as “loving” Jesus,
Jesus put the following qualification on love.
HERE
IOW Love requires obedience to His commands. Otherwise a “said” love is a dead love. .
May I ask,
are you wanting to argue Protestant theology with Jesus over this some day?
Let’s not forget
How Jesus answered that in Lk 22…
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steve-b
Guest
lanman72:
says who?
NOPE
Heb 10:
25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
So , according to you
There are people who (neglect to meet) on judgement Day as is the habit of some? Really !
Different day
Context context context.
it’s a different day
who do you know that can blow off meeting on that Day? Can one Say to God, Gee I don’t think so, I don’t feel like meeting on that Day.
Re: sacrifice HERE
Re: Bishops,
Bp Ignatius, of Antioch, was ordained a Catholic Bishop, in the Catholic Church, by the apostles in ~68 a.d. Ignatius was a direct disciple of John the apostle. Ignatius wrote 6 letters to the Catholic Church in 6 locations.
Example:
He identifies the Church as the Catholic Church, ch 8, and the Eucharist to be valid ch 7, 8 HERE. AND one Eucharist ch 4 HERE He also writes schismatics from the Catholic Church won’t be going to heaven, from his Epistle to the Philadelphians ch 3 HERE .
Ignatius is a 1st century Catholic Bishop, direct disciple of John the apostle from ~68 a.d. - ~107 a.d.
keep reading you’ll see priests and deacons mentioned as well
my references refute what you say.
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steve-b
Guest
Do you think Jesus, God almighty, doesn’t know what was behind the Septuagint? When Judgement day comes, does that put a wrench in God’s ability to communicate with us?steve-b:
“For those who may not know, the Septuagint was the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament”…
Disagree with this…a purposeful misrepresentation of the facts in my opinion.
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De_Maria
Guest
The Deposit of Faith is that which was Taught by Christ to the Apostles and which the Apostles carried on. The thing is, we know that Christ taught more than is included in Scripture, because Scripture itself, says:
John 21:25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
Yes, it is.
So, you admit that what is being described is the Eucharistic celebration, right? At least, from the question you asked above, it seems that you acknowledge this fact.
That’s what the Old Covenant priest does.
Amen! Jesus Christ offered Himself as the once for all time sacrifice for sins!
Still true and all according to Catholic Doctrine.
Still true.
This is tricky language.
a. By one offering He made perfect. Are you perfect?
St. Paul himself, inspired by the Holy Spirit, said:
Philippians 3:12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:
Why wasn’t he perfect by the once for all sacrifice of Christ?
b. Those who are being made holy. This is sanctification.
True. We have a need for a priest to offer the ONCE FOR ALL TIME sacrifice on our behalf. And we, as priests, have the obligation to participate in that feast which is the once for all sacrifice for our sins. Let’s look at another verse.
1 Corinthians 5:7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8. Therefore let us keep the feast…
What feast do you keep?
And again,
Hebrews 13:10We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
We have an altar. What happens on altars?
cont’d
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De_Maria
Guest
cont’d
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,
If you miss the Sunday gathering and therefore, the Eucharistic celebration, you have trod underfoot the Body of Christ, which is what?
1 Cor 10:16… The bread which we break , is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
The Blood of the Covenant which is what?
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
1 Corinthians 10:16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?
So, yes, this is the Eucharistic sacrifice and it means much, much more than what Protestants value it.
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Mighty strong words for the neglect of an unnecessary, symbolic gathering.
Then, we can call it the Christian Passover, where we keep the Feast of the once for all sacrifice for our sins.
Good. I’m glad you acknowledge that they celebrate the Eucharist. Now, look at how the Eucharist is described.
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,
If you miss the Sunday gathering and therefore, the Eucharistic celebration, you have trod underfoot the Body of Christ, which is what?
1 Cor 10:16… The bread which we break , is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
The Blood of the Covenant which is what?
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
1 Corinthians 10:16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?
So, yes, this is the Eucharistic sacrifice and it means much, much more than what Protestants value it.
A thanksgiving meal and a sacrifice. But, let’s say you’re right and it is just as you say. Why then, does God hold as enemies those who do not attend this gathering. Have you read what the Holy Spirit inspired St. Paul to say:
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Mighty strong words for the neglect of an unnecessary, symbolic gathering.
No, he explained it. What you need to do is compare your understanding of it to the consequences which St. Paul has listed for those who neglect this gathering.
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mcq72
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not sure what you mean. How many canons were ther in Judea ?
Is the Septuagints tantamount to a bible as we speak of today ? I thought it was for pagan king who wanted/collected religious writings from many sources, including Jewish writings. Religious writings can be scriptural writings and non scriptural yet religious writing.
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