The Universal Church

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Wannano:

Putting people into little boxes is what I feel a Church is doing also when it legislates behavior in situations that are not necessarily sinful in and of themselves. Preventing pregnancy by NFP by only having relations on supposedly safe days to purposefully avoid pregnancy is no different in my mind than using preventative contraception.

NFP is using what is naturally occurring from God. Conception can still happen. There is nothing artificial about it to deliberately prevent , disrupt, or end, conception.

I am not in favor of disrupting or ending conception. With NFP, the intent and attitude is still to be in control by trying to prevent, pregnancy. And I am not saying that is wrong.

I would just reiterate the following point.

NFP doesn’t prevent pregnancy. Pregnancy can still happen. Because, A woman’s cycle isn’t perfect.

 

[mcq72]

Peter was the bishop of Rome,

No where, if i recall, does Iranaeus say Peter was the bishop of Rome…apostle yes, founder yes, great yes, equally along with Paul in these three descriptors.

That understanding of Peter in Rome, ergo the preeminent authority

You are half right. Are you any better than Schaff when not stating what is obviously written? It is the understanding of the two greatest apostles being in Rome, Peter and Paul, ergo the preeminence writes Iranaeus.

 

[steve-b]

Peter was the bishop of Rome,

mcq72:

No where, if i recall, does Iranaeus say Peter was the bishop of Rome…apostle yes, founder yes, great yes, equally along with Paul in these three descriptors.

Are you suggesting after all this time on CAF, and all the proofs given, that you think Peter wasn’t a bishop?

That understanding of Peter in Rome, ergo the preeminent authority

mcq72:

You are half right. Are you any better than Schaff when not stating what is obviously written? It is the understanding of the two greatest apostles being in Rome, Peter and Paul, ergo the preeminence writes Iranaeus.

I don’t put myself over anyone.

Fortunately I have the Catholic Church to follow.

AND

Loooooong before Schaff, and the 100% man made Protestant system he followed, there was the Catholic Church going back to Jesus. Schaff knew this well.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Are you suggesting after all this time on CAF, and all the proofs given, that you think Peter wasn’t a bishop?

That’s what it looks like he is saying…and it’s shocking lol…

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

steve-b:

Wannano:

Putting people into little boxes is what I feel a Church is doing also when it legislates behavior in situations that are not necessarily sinful in and of themselves. Preventing pregnancy by NFP by only having relations on supposedly safe days to purposefully avoid pregnancy is no different in my mind than using preventative contraception.

NFP is using what is naturally occurring from God. Conception can still happen. There is nothing artificial about it to deliberately prevent , disrupt, or end, conception.

I am not in favor of disrupting or ending conception. With NFP, the intent and attitude is still to be in control by trying to prevent, pregnancy. And I am not saying that is wrong.

I would just reiterate the following point.i

NFP doesn’t prevent pregnancy. Pregnancy can still happen. Because, A woman’s cycle isn’t perfect.

I understand that and that is why I said “intending to and trying to.”

 

[mcq72]

Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal”

Well. Peter ministered in many cities, including Rome.

Again not sure what context is.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal”

Well. Peter ministered in many cities, including Rome.

Again not sure what context is.

His last see was Rome. Rome is where he died. Ergo, where Peter is there is the Church

 

[mcq72]

Are you suggesting after all this time on CAF, and all the proofs given, that you think Peter wasn’t a bishop?

Does Iranaeus refer to him as bishop of Rome?

I am not suggesting anything, only asking what can we derive from Iranaeus.

I don’t put myself over anyone.

Not over but yet critical (critiquing, which is fine) and not of Iranaeus but of Schaff.

Again, nowhere does Iranaeus explicitly state Peter was bishop of Rome. Peter and Paul are explicitly cited as the two greatest apostles founding the church at Rome. Founding churches is what apostles do, as sent ones. That would indeed include by implication " feeding" and pastoral, elder/ presbyter= bishop duties.

 

[mcq72]

His last see was Rome. Rome is where he died. Ergo, where Peter is there is the Church

Thank you. Is that the inference of Ambrose?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Are you suggesting after all this time on CAF, and all the proofs given, that you think Peter wasn’t a bishop?

Does Iranaeus refer to him as bishop of Rome?

I am not suggesting anything, only asking what can we derive from Iranaeus.

Who are the 12 bishops names Irenaeus mentions? And he mentions them in succession of whom?
All those bishops were bishops of Rome in succession from Peter.

I don’t put myself over anyone.

mcq72:

Not over but yet critical (critiquing, which is fine) and not of Iranaeus but of Schaff.

Again, nowhere does Iranaeus explicitly state Peter was bishop of Rome. Peter and Paul are explicitly cited as the two greatest apostles founding the church at Rome. Founding churches is what apostles do, as sent ones. That would indeed include " feeding" and pastoral, elder/ presbyter duties.

He most certainly did. Who did he say built up the Church of Rome? Peter and Paul

Was Paul a bishop? No He calls himself a priest HERE

Peter was a bishop
Jesus established Peter’s office (the papacy) as leader of the apostles and leader of the Church. He intends it to continue. So it will.

And

when an apostle died, their office (in that case bishop) was to continue. THAT’S why Peter called for Judas bishopric Episcopoi to be filled after Judas died (Acts 1:20). The same goes for the office Peter holds when he died. He had successors as we see in writing.

 

[mcq72]

And he mentions them in succession of whom?
All those bishops were bishops of Rome in succession from Peter.

If i have this right, this is from whom Romes succession comes from, per Iranaeus:

“The blessed apostles (Peter and Paul), then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate”.

Did I miss something whereby you state Iranaeus only says from Peter and not Paul?

Otherwise you and Schaff are alledged to be anachronistic (biased) on reading of the text ?..which is ok… can not get any more biased than a fellow protestant and a Catholic doing " much discussion"…lol

 

[Michael16]

I’m really happy to see @mcq72 dialogue goes well in this thread. Please continue!!

For me, I don’t know Saint Irenaeus’ writings too well. It’s been a few years since I read Against Heresies.

My thinking is: Saint Peter was the first Pope. Thereby, his successors hold the office Jesus gave Saint Peter.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

And he mentions them in succession of whom?
All those bishops were bishops of Rome in succession from Peter.

If i have this right, this is from whom Romes succession comes from, per Iranaeus:

“The blessed apostles (Peter and Paul), then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate”.

Did I miss something whereby you state Iranaeus only says from Peter and not Paul?

Due to space I gave a link. You didn’t read the link I provided.

mcq72:

Otherwise you and Schaff are alledged to be anachronistic (biased) on reading of the text ?..which is ok… can not get any more biased than a fellow protestant and a Catholic doing " much discussion"…lol

Schaff is a Protestant. He isn’t even “IN” the Church he attempts to write about.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

His last see was Rome. Rome is where he died. Ergo, where Peter is there is the Church

Thank you. Is that the inference of Ambrose?

That too

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

And he mentions them in succession of whom?
All those bishops were bishops of Rome in succession from Peter.

If i have this right, this is from whom Romes succession comes from, per Iranaeus:

“The blessed apostles (Peter and Paul), then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate”.

Did I miss something whereby you state Iranaeus only says from Peter and not Paul?

Otherwise you and Schaff are alledged to be anachronistic (biased) on reading of the text ?..which is ok… can not get any more biased than a fellow protestant and a Catholic doing " much discussion"…lol

English translations don’t always do justice to the text
Acts 1:20 talks about an office (episcopoi) another takes, the office of bishop, being filled when an apostle dies.,

HERE Successors of the Apostles | Catholic Answers. Judas office was being filled when he died. All offices then of an apostle is handled the same way. Including Peter’s

as I showed in a previous text, Paul called himself a priest.

AND

Paul is not the head of the Church. Peter is

 

[mcq72]

English translations don’t always do justice to the text

Kind of what Schaff wrote lol

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

English translations don’t always do justice to the text

Kind of what Schaff wrote lol

exactly

Schaff wrote in his English

 

[mcq72]

My thinking is: Saint Peter was the first Pope. Thereby, his successors hold the office Jesus gave Saint Peter.

Thank you.

Yes, you have the Catholic understanding. …and I obviously the P/O understsnding.

Never the less, trying to read Iranaeus for himself, who makes no mention of such an office. However, he shakes our controversy by citing Rome’s church as “preeminent”. His only explicit reasoning is due to Peter and Paul, as “the two greatest apostles organizing and founding” said church.

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.iv.html#fnf_ix.iv.iv-p2.4

 

[mcq72]

as I showed in a previous text, Paul called himself a priest.

Well, not all translations have " priest"… minister is used in other translations…but yes, word is for priestly duty, which is generally for one who sacrifices, yet ministering the word of God is also a priestly duty…Paul refers to himself as apostle many times…Peter says he is a fellow presbyter, Jesus being chief presbyter.

It is quite clear in text what Paul is metaphorically as priest offering up to God.

 

[mcq72]

Paul is not the head of the Church. Peter is

Never inferred otherwise. Nor did Iranaeus, of either apostle, except that they were both the greatest, and one can correctly infer from that credential to properly follow them.