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mcq72
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Please show where Iraneaus says this as explicitly as you do?
Show where he says Peter was the leader of Paul. I cant find it in his text.
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Show where he says Peter was the leader of Paul. I cant find it in his text.
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mcq72
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I am sure you have, just as surely as I have erred on the matter at times.
However I was addressing how the CC (the chair of Peter, in this case) says she puts forth no doctrinal errors.
If I am wrong on this, that the chair of Peter, Rome itself, can teach doctrinal error, or has reformed any doctrine, please illucidate.
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steve-b
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I’m finding that, is a very weak rebuttal to what Bonocore wrote, and THAT is being most charitable.,
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steve-b
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mcq72:
Irenaeus was a bishop, taught by those who were direct disciples of the apostles. Are you suggesting he couldn’t answer these questions?
What does the king giving the keys of the kingdom to another person, represent?
Who specifically, did Jesus give the keys of His kingdom to?
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steve-b
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Show me exactly where the Church had/has taught doctrinal error?
Name the doctrine, name the error.
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mcq72
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Well the first question kind of was how do I misunderstand or misrepresent the CC or the chair of Peter in terms of her term " infallibility"?
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mcq72
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You mean like when Jesus " suggested" to Nicodemus that He should know as a leader and partaker of chair of Moses about being born again in spirit, because he didnt know?
Again I prefer to let Iranaeus “speak” for himself.
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mcq72
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I would hope so, in absence of any rebuttal on my part lol
Indeed, I agree with your textual usage here…just wonder why Iranaeus did not mention this, and more, like the “rock” text, when trying to convince gnostics of a better preservation and authoritative conveyance of the truth.
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steve-b
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How do you understand infallibility?steve-b:
Well the first question kind of was how do I misunderstand or misrepresent the CC or the chair of Peter in terms of her term " infallibility"?
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steve-b
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Given who Irenaeus is, and when he writes, and who taught him, why would you doubt Irenaeus doesn’t think those bishops he names from Rome, are NOT in succession from Peter.? Or that when Peter and Paul are listed, that Peter is NOT the leader in his mind?steve-b:
You mean like when Jesus " suggested" to Nicodemus that He should know as a leader and partaker of chair of Moses about being born again in spirit, because he didnt know?
Again I prefer to let Iranaeus “speak” for himself.
Moving ahead in time, to Eusebius, and his list of succession of the bishops of Rome,
How does he list them in succession from whom?
Bk 5 ch 28, para 3 Eusebius, History of the Church,
3. For they say that all the early teachers and the [apostles] received and taught what they now declare, and that the [truth]of the [Gospel] was preserved until the times of Victor, who was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter,
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steve-b
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In his own way, he does make his points about where preeminent authority comes from and why it is there.steve-b:
I would hope so, in absence of any rebuttal on my part lol
Indeed, I agree with your textual usage here…just wonder why Iranaeus did not mention this, and more, like the “rock” text, when trying to convince gnostics of a better preservation and authoritative conveyance of the truth.
And we saw earlier, how this gave Phillip Schaff grief to have to translate that passage. He knew exactly what Irenaeus meant, and why he meant it that way. And he tried to find another less damaging way to translate it, but he had to admit, he had to leave it that way.
As I quoted from Eusebius, in the previous post, we see that it’s Church history to see the bishops of the Church of Rome as successors from Peter.
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mcq72
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Not a question of doubt. It is just that he doesnt say. Hence one can only surmise, no matter how intelligently you use other sources to fill in his blanks, if there were any.
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mcq72
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Yes, that is Eusebius, not Iranaeus.
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mcq72
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Agree.
It seems like you know exactly what not only Iranaeus knew but what Schaff thought and knew.
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steve-b
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Each and every writer, doesn’t have a must say list of terms or ideas that have to be said each and every time they write.steve-b:
Not a question of doubt. It is just that he doesnt say. Hence one can only surmise, and no matter how intelligently you use other sources to fill in his blanks, if there were any.
Re: Irenaeus
He writes
" while the [Catholic] [Church] possesses one and the same [faith] throughout the whole world, as we have already said." Bk 1, ch 10, para 3
So
When we go to Bk 3, Ch 3, para 1-4
Does he have a specific list of words he needs to say again and again and again or there is doubt as to what he means?
Does he have to constantly identify himself as Catholic? Or that he is writing about the Catholic Church? Or who is in charge? Or what makes the Church Catholic?
Go to paragraph 4 on that link. You’ll read a story about John the apostle. That isn’t in scripture. Irenaeus probably heard that story about John from Bp Polycarp who was a direct disciple of John.
Also
Keep in mind, There is a whole different mindset among people of the true faith, the Catholic Faith, Irenaeus is writing to vs those people who Irenaeus is writing against, namely heretics, those NOT in the Catholic Church.
OOPS! my 2nd link was incorrect. I corrected the error 
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steve-b
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Eusebius didn’t invent his work “History of the Church”. Where did Eusebius get his history from?steve-b:
Yes, that is Eusebius, not Iranaeus.
He quotes Irenaeus
At this time, while Anicetus was at the head of the church of Rome (ca. 155-66), IRENAEUS relates that Polycarp , who was still alive, was at Rome, and that he had a conference with Anicetus on a question concerning the day of the paschal feast. And the same writer gives another account of Polycarp which I feel constrained to add to that which has been already related in regard to him. The account is taken from the third book of Irenaeus’ work Against Heresies , and is as follows: “But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and acquainted with many that had seen Christ, but was also appointed by apostles in Asia bishop of the church of Smyrna. We too saw him in our early youth; for he lived a long time, and died, when a very old man, a glorious and most illustrious martyr’s death, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, which the Church also hands down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those who, down to the present time, have succeeded Polycarp, who was a much more trustworthy and certain witness of truth than Valentinus and Marcion and the rest of the heretics. He also was in Rome in the time of Anicetus and caused many to turn away from the above-mentioned heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received from the apostles this one and only system of truth which has been transmitted by the Church. And there are those that heard from him (Polycarp) that John, the disciple of the Lord , going to bathe in Ephesus and seeing Cerinthus within, ran out of the bath-house without bathing, crying, ‘Let us flee, lest even the bath fall, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within.’ And Polycarp himself, when Marcion once met him and said, ‘Knowest thou us?’ replied, ‘I know the first born of Satan.’ Such caution did the apostles and their disciples exercise that they might not even converse with any of those who perverted the truth; as Paul also said, ‘A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing he that is such is subverted and sinneth, being condemned of himself’ (Titus 3:10-11). There is also a very powerful epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those that wish to do so, and that are concerned for their own salvation, may learn the character of his faith and the preaching of the truth.” Such is the account of Irenaeus. (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4.14.1-8)
That story comes from the link I gave from Irenaeus.
Me thinks you protest too much
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mcq72
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Shall I surmise also that Iranaeus did not cite papal office, but lumped Peter and Paul together as the greatest, and they found and organized Romes’church, that being the reason for Rome’s preeminence, and he got that info from Polycarp , who got it from the apostle John ?
Well, I am not surmising the former, for it is what Iranaeus wrote, but where he got the info, the latter, we both probably rightly surmise.
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steve-b
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steve-b:
Shall I surmise also that Iranaeus did not cite papal office, but lumped Peter and Paul together as the greatest, and they found and organized Romes’church, that being the reason for Rome’s preeminence, and he got that info from Polycarp , who got it from the apostle John ?
Well, I am not surmising the former, for it is what Iranaeus wrote, but where he got the info, the latter, we both probably rightly surmise.
well,may I suggest, because Irenaeus knew Bp Polycarp who was a direct disciple of John.
So
let’s take from examples, early examples, that Irenaeus is much closer in time to, and got his education from,. That way we can show what actually happened historically, rather than surmise what happened,
Re: Peter and Paul
Here’s a short read. Who’s in charge, Peter Paul or James? Who Was at the Helm in the Book of Acts? Peter? James? | Catholic Answers
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mcq72
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The disciples bickered of such, and now we?
For sure we have one head, one chief Shepherd.
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steve-b
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steve-b:
The disciples bickered of such, and now we?
For sure we have one head, one chief Shepherd.
ANDWe know from the chief Shepherd, who tells us who the cause of this arguing is from. It’s Satan.
AND
Satan doesn’t change what the chief Shepherd set in place.
By Jesus design, and command, HE put one shepherd, in particular, and in succession from this one particular shepherd, till the end of time, to be in charge over all of His other shepherds in His Church on this side of eternity.
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