The Universal Church

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@mcq72,

ROCOR is Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.

Orthodox Churches aren’t in communion with Rome. You’re quoting the Canons for the EASTERN CATHOLIC CHURCHES in communion with the Holy Father.

If you’re going to quote Church documents, question someone’s validity of opinion solely on Church membership and claim your opponent is completely out of context; do your research thoroughly and fairly first, please.

Look, mcq72; you’re trying really hard to make the texts sound like they support your position when they don’t.

I’m not sure how to charitably say this, but I’ll try: Just study the facts in their whole context in a clear and plain sense reading. No need to read anything into it or wrangle overmuch on exact wording, please. Just do a thorough, balanced and fair study with everything in context before presenting your case, please.

A fair researcher does what Saint Thomas Aquinas does. Follow the truth wherever it leads.

Leadership isn’t just setting an example or persuasion. A good example of leadership is a father in the household or a boss at work. Leadership means you make judgments, decisions and rulings that are binding and those you lead listen to those judgments, rulings and decisions.

Good leaders don’t lord it over others. Good leaders basically serve the people they lead; using their authority for the good of the community or group they lead.
 
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steve-b said:
"if one is first all aren’t equal, and if all are equal no one is first" Fr Ambrose ROCOR
Fr Ambrose called it a nonsense term then… And I agreed
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I am sure, however, that Father Ambrose recognises the situation in which this term normally applies: where someone has seniority over fellows in one aspect of their rôles, but simple equality in others. Perhaps he has some superior alternative name to offer, because otherwise his comment seems simply trite.

The Chief Justice has seniority, for instance, in presiding over hearings, and in determining who writes the majority opinion. But he cannot appoint or dismiss his fellow justices, nor can he determine their core function: deciding for or against the appellant. In parts of the court’s functions he is first, in others he is an equal.
 
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steve-b said:
The whole Church , East and West , follows that understanding
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Ok, but not according to Ratzinger, ( post 628) who just uses term “East”, when he says the equal thing of sees started in “East”.
 
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Michael16 said:
You’re quoting the Canons for the EASTERN CATHOLIC CHURCHES in communion with the Holy Father.
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Not sure I quoted Canon’s but perhaps you meant steve-b.
Michael16 said:
you’re going to quote Church documents
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Not sure which documents you refer to, …scripture, or Ratzinger or Chieti that others posted ?
Michael16 said:
Leadership isn’t just setting an example or persuasion.
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Agree, sometimes. However are you denying that at times setting a good example , even inspiring or persuading others to do or believe otherwise is a form of " leading" or “going before” ?

So yes a father in a home or a boss at work are heirarchal leaders. Yet group dynamics also allows for leadership by example and persuasion as you say, by a fellow sibling or co worker. One can not deny that those of equal ranking or situation ( kinship, co worker, apostles) can have a leader amongst them to elevate others to better service towards the “father’s” or the “boss’s” wishes.

Does leading always have to be heirarchal, judicial?

Was Joan of Arc a general or captain of the army by official ranking ? For sure she led by example and persuasion.
 
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Agree, using her as example was problematic for describing leadership, apart from “heirarchy” for she was “authorized” to ride with army, but i felt not because of her “rank” in military but more because of her faith to lead as a French Christian servant both of and from God to the king. That is she did not pull rank to lead, but was equal to all as a “Frenchman” and Christian under same God.
 
@mcq72,

No, I’m not denying that leadership can and does involve example and persuasion. In those cases, it’s often a matter of that person stepping up to the plate and taking the initiative to get things organized, make decisions and get folks going through charisma, example and eloquence.

The thing you have to realize is it’s a fuzzy concept; first among equals.

First in honor and precedence. Which means you afford that primus inter pares with respect. Respect for position and respect for their opinion; for respect affords weight of opinion in your deliberations.

That means you’d listen to that opinion above the others’. Respect for opinion and precedence naturally leads towards following that opinion and precedence. Not from servile fear or sycophantic toadyism; but from love and respect.

Once you understand that, you begin to see where Saint Peter is elevated above the other Apostles.
 
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Michael16 said:
The thing you have to realize is it’s a fuzzy concept; first among equals.
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I think it might be fuzzy because His ways are higher than ours, even in terms of leadership and in terms of being greatest. You can say “trinity” (a man made term) is fuzzy but true by faith. I say the same about first amongst equals.
 
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@mcq72,

Look, the definitions of papal authority aren’t truly a man made concept as your statement of trinity seems to spell out. Papal authority grew naturally from the other Churches respecting his position as the Bishop of Rome; the highest of the Apostolic Sees; because that’s where Saint Peter last led a flock.

The Church in Corinth sought out the Holy Father’s opinion in their problem because of the weight of his position. Honestly, Constantinople was much closer than Rome and yet Corinth went to Rome.

I’d say that papal authority was already present, latent and implicit; in his position of first honor and precedence and in the words of Our Lord to Saint Peter building His Church upon Saint Peter as the foundation and giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

Nowhere in Scripture does Our Lord delegate that kind of power and authority to the other Apostles. Later developments in papal authority were simply definitions of that latent and implicit authority of his Petrine Office.

Nowhere in Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition does the Holy Father arbitrarily take power and authority for himself.

How do you define first among equals?
 
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Michael16 said:
Once you understand that, you begin to see where Saint Peter is elevated above the other Apostles.
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Well thank you. I believe I understand what you are saying but must still kindly disagree when you add words " precedence, position, over .

I prefer the visual of a circle instead of pyramid here. Peter still holds a position (closest to center) but is not over. It is an honor to be at center. It still affects the others.
 
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@mcq72, thank you for understanding and for your kindly response.

I understand the natural reluctance of man to accept an authority higher than his own; even one divinely instituted.

Could you explain your concept more fully, please?
 
mcq72 said:
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steve-b:
Ya gotta be careful using the term "never" like that.
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No i have to he careful using the term more explicitly eastern orthodox, which do not believe in jurisdictional prima
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To which I would ask, while Eastern, doesn’t that make them NOT orthodox ? 😉
 
PickyPicky said:
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steve-b:
"if one is first all aren’t equal, and if all are equal no one is first" Fr Ambrose ROCOR
Fr Ambrose called it a nonsense term then… And I agreed
Click to expand...
I am sure, however, that Father Ambrose recognises the situation in which this term normally applies: where someone has seniority over fellows in one aspect of their rôles, but simple equality in others. Perhaps he has some superior alternative name to offer, because otherwise his comment seems simply trite.

The Chief Justice has seniority, for instance, in presiding over hearings, and in determining who writes the majority opinion. But he cannot appoint or dismiss his fellow justices, nor can he determine their core function: deciding for or against the appellant. In parts of the court’s functions he is first, in others he is an equal.
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You’re speaking of different systems and each system’s rules for operation.

As I posted previously

This is canon law East and West

“The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office (munus) given in a special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire Church on earth; therefore in virtue of his office (munus) he enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise.”
(Canon 43 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches )

IOW

The whole Church , East and West , follows that understanding
 
Assyrian Church of the East
Oriental Orthodox
Eastern Orthodox
Catholic

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 …
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@steve-b, I have to charitably correct you. Our Church and the Orthodox are the one, Holy, catholic and apostolic Church established by Christ.

We took the name Catholic because we had to differentiate the Church from the Protestants.
 
Michael16 said:
@steve-b, I have to charitably correct you. Our Church and the Orthodox are the one, Holy, catholic and apostolic Church established by Christ.

We took the name Catholic because we had to differentiate the Church from the Protestants.
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I have to charitably correct YOU

The Catholic Church has been known by that name from the beginning.

Have you not seen the ECF’s writings?
 
@steve-b and @(name removed by moderator),

Yes, we’ve been the Catholic Church from the beginning and the Orthodox have been part of the Church from the same beginning as well.

In the West, we can’t just simply identify as the Church or Christian. We have to identify as Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic because of the Protestants. If we don’t specify our identity; people will just get confused because Protestants will often call themselves simply Christian.

Remember: The Protestants will recite the Creed in their services; calling themselves the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. When they’re not in the Church.

It’s sad.
 
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@(name removed by moderator), okay. Fair enough. I concede that since V2, they’re considered separated brethren. But still separate. I’m sorry things are the way they are in your country.
 
@Wannano,

My thinking is: It’s a combination of God moving the Magisterium at V2 and the Magisterium being open to possibilities while remaining faithful to Tradition and Scripture.

A lot of the reforms of V2 were by theologians practicing Ressourcement theology; which is returning to the patristic sources.
 
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