The Universal Church

[lanman87]

People once argued in favor of books that were not inspired. The Church straightened it out like she always does. No different here or any other topic that arises.

How did the church straighten out which books were inspired?

 

[lanman87]

Who told Hippolytus and Cyril they were wrong?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Ergo, if you were to worship YOUR communion elements,

1. When did we first start worshipping the consecrated elements?
2. When did we start insisting they should only be held in gold cups and plates?
3. When did we start parading beautiful gold monstrance as David did the ark ?
4. Was a forefather wrong saying we are His monstrance?

1. The Early Church and the Eucharist What the Early Church Believed: The Real Presence | Catholic Answers
2. gold vessels to hold sacred items, shows highest respect for the consecrated items
3. THAT particular action began around the 13th century
4. Which forefather are you referring to?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit

 

[lanman87]

Who decided what was what?

 

[mcq72]

Grace always comes 1st.

Grace to believe and be born again first?

You’re not citing 1st century writing, That is from YOU …

I was referring to scripture, where we find in Mary’s pre visitation time old covenant justification and sanctification, and later Jesus over and over again citing his mission to be lifted up, to die as the Lamb, to take on sin of the world, to become sin, where the son of man hath no place where to lay His head, as contrasted to fittingness of an extra covenant/ biblical “immaculateness” for the pleasure of our Lord?

 

[mcq72]

• The Early Church and the Eucharist https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-real-presence
• gold vessels to hold sacred items, shows highest respect for the consecrated items
• THAT particular action began around the 13th century
• Which forefather are you referring to?

As to #1 thank you.Seen it before. Obviously very Real Presence (transubstantiation?) sided, with same material non literalists read to garner their views.

When did gold vessels come into play?

As to #4 my bad …it is the Didache,

“He tabernacles in us.”… it is my paraphrase or take to say we are His monstrance.

 

[mcq72]

IOW, Jesus gave His apostles, at this point, the authority and power to DO exactly what He is doing , That is, to change bread and wine into His body and blood.

So as disciples, I mean " lay people", whenever Jesus speaks commands and admonitions to the twelve it is only for them to observe?

Should I start rereading the gospels and change observance of a whole bunch of admonitions and commands, leaving them for the clergy only?

Is Chick still alive?

Is Plus XIX still alive?

 

[Margaret_Ann]

IIRC, @steve-b posted earlier that Scripture + Tradition = the Deposit of Faith.

Protestants are missing the other half of the Deposit of Faith.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

• The Early Church and the Eucharist https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-real-presence
• gold vessels to hold sacred items, shows highest respect for the consecrated items
• THAT particular action began around the 13th century
• Which forefather are you referring to?

As to #1 thank you.Seen it before. Obviously very Real Presence (transubstantiation?) sided, with same material non literalists read to garner their views.

When did gold vessels come into play?

As to #4 my bad …it is the Didache,

“He tabernacles in us.”… it is my paraphrase or take to say we are His monstrance.

Re: gold vessels,

Obviously, until one has the capability to use gold, then gold isn’t used.

Do you not think that in the first century Rome, that pagans didn’t use gold for their vessels? WHY wouldn’t the Church do that for the sacred when iT FINANCIALLY became even possible?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

IOW, Jesus gave His apostles, at this point, the authority and power to DO exactly what He is doing , That is, to change bread and wine into His body and blood.

So as disciples, I mean " lay people", whenever Jesus speaks commands and admonitions to the twelve it is only for them to observe?

Should I start rereading the gospels and change observance of a whole bunch of admonitions and commands, leaving them for the clergy only?

My point was, Jesus at that point, that I was quoting from, ordained His apostles, to be able to do what Jesus was doing. Changing bread and wine into His body and blood.

Just because you read that scripture doesn’t give YOU that right that Jesus was giving to His apostles.

Is Chick still alive?

mcq72:

Is Plus XIX still alive?

Actually,

Both are alive, because both are immortal in their soul, as is everyone conceived. The question THEN is, in eternity, where will everyone be after THIS life is over… right?

Jesus already said, Few are saved

meaning everyone else isn’t

 

[mcq72]

My point was, Jesus at that point, that I was quoting from, ordained His apostles, to be able to do what Jesus was doing. Changing bread and wine into His body and blood.

Just because you read that scripture doesn’t give YOU that right that Jesus was giving to His apostles.

Straw man, this " just reading that scripture" gives ME the right to “do” what Jesus commands. Never said that, as if reading makes one a disciple, and disciple is what a believer is so I said " disciple" and changed it to lay person, to bend to an entrenched Catholic point of view, apart from clegy.

That was your point in my opinion, the speration of clergy and lay people, and not just that in said text Christ ordained apostles.

“IOW, Jesus gave His apostles, at this point, the authority and power to DO exactly what He is doing , That is, to change bread and wine into His body and blood.”

Of course you firmly and rightly so as a Catholic know this is not for all disciples, but only for priests, rightly ordained by CC.

So my point stands that maybe I should reread gospels and start discerning what admonitions are just for clergy because after all, Jesus only told it to apostles.

PS…it is a point of great sadness and contention that I have over this issue…find it self serving for priestly class (clergy) to interpret scripture that sets up exclusive " doing" for only themselves, and even interpret said transubstantiation as a sacrifice, further justifying clergy in circular fashion.

My charity is strained over this , but I am sure I have said nothing new, and that you havent heard before.

 

[mcq72]

Both are alive, because both are immortal in their soul, as is everyone conceived. The question THEN is, in eternity, where will everyone be after THIS life is over… right?

Jesus already said, Few are saved

meaning everyone else isn’t

Agree, and should be a question posed not just to non Catholics. I mean Baptists and other evangelicals are quick to ask all, even their own parishioners, to make sure of their election, by asking if one were to die tonight, where would they spend eternity? And further what is the basis for their personal destinaton assesment?

I rarely have heard such a question posed to Catholics by their parish priest. The assumption, even teaching, is because they are Catholic they are saved, that is right with God thru baptism, even born again. For sure they review their status in relation to their actions and sacramental covering especially penance and mortal sin. It is not so much a thing of being saved or ever questioning if they have ever been born again or have ever fully trusted Christ as foundation to justification, as if this already a reality by being Catholic ( institutional salvation, or resting on religious rites and activities ?).

So also we are to be alive in Christ now, seated in heavenly places now, having the downpayment of our ransom in us in the Holy Ghost, bearing witness to our spirit that we are His child now?

So if only few are saved, only a few go thru that narrow gate (let us not broaden it ), and Catholicism is the largest group, are they hearing this message also, or is there safety in numbers, even in tradition of our fathers?

Indeed a question for all of us, and thank you for bringing it up.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Both are alive, because both are immortal in their soul, as is everyone conceived. The question THEN is, in eternity, where will everyone be after THIS life is over… right?

Jesus already said, Few are saved

meaning everyone else isn’t

Agree, and should be a question posed not just to non Catholics. I mean Baptists and other evangelicals are quick to ask all, even their own parishioners, to make sure of their election, by asking if one were to die tonight, where would they spend eternity? And further what is the basis for their personal destinaton assesment?

I rarely have heard such a question posed to Catholics by their parish priest. The assumption, even teaching, is because they are Catholic they are saved, that is right with God thru baptism, even born again.

[snip]

Well,
the CCC. says, Mortal sin is a sin EVERYBODY has to worry about. EVERYBODY has to fear hell

SO

Don’t take my word for this. So that this is perfectly clear, please open and read the 21 paragraphs from the CCC on mortal sin. Note what it says about one who dies in mortal sin. That applies to Catholics AND non Catholics too. It applies to everyone. http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=mortal+sin&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

Any sin serious enough to land one in hell, if they die in that sin, is a mortal sin.

For example: I’ve given a list, of sins, that Paul says, based on the consequences, are mortal sins. I’ve also picked one sin out of the group dissensions διχοστασία , to make a point

Gal 5:19-21
immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissensions διχοστασία , party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

IOW HELL for THEM

Q: Since ALL those sins mentioned, have the same consequence,​

why the massive push back, justification, excuses ,etc by people in that highlighted sin for remaining in that sin?

especially considering those consequences

 

[mcq72]

Well,
the CCC. says, Mortal sin is a sin EVERYBODY has to worry about. EVERYBODY has to fear hell

SO

Well before you snkipped my next sentence was this:

“For sure they review their status in relation to their actions and sacramental covering especially penance and mortal sin”.

 

[mcq72]

why the massive push back, justification, excuses ,etc by people in that highlighted sin for remaining in that sin ?

especially considering those consequences

Lol…thank you, and vice versa on warning for causing dissension over tradition with a capital “t”, and not telling parishiners about making election sure not just by keeping rules and sacraments but sureness of new birth and fully trusting in Jesus Christ.

 

[steve-b]

PS…it is a point of great sadness and contention that I have over this issue…find it self serving for priestly class (clergy) to interpret scripture that sets up exclusive " doing" for only themselves, and even interpret said transubstantiation as a sacrifice, further justifying clergy in circular fashion.

Just pointing out

Who wrote the scriptures?
Who preserved those scriptures?
Who called certain works scripture vs others NOT scripture?
Who collected ONLY those books that were called scripture?
Who copied those works before there was a printing press?
Who changed fishermen into priests and bishops?
etc etc etc

One such ordination, took place ~68 a.d. Ignatius, who knew the apostle,s and was ordained by the apostles, was a direct disciple of John the apostle. Since John died ~100 a.d. that means Ignatius was John’s disciple for 30+ yrs. In ~ 107 a.d., Ignatius was arrested for being a Catholic bishop, and was sent to Rome to be thrown to the lions in the coliseum, for sport. Before he suffered martyrdom, in a horrific way, he wrote an Epistle to the Romans. It’s NOT a long read. It shows his mind set. He wrote 5 other letters to the Church in various locations. To your point about rules. And Church rules. See his Epistle to the Smyrnæans and his Epistle to the Philadelphians

mcq72:

My charity is strained over this , but I am sure I have said nothing new, and that you havent heard before.

All I can say, life is like going to school. We progress grade through grade, taking tests, pop quizes, mid terms, final exams, then we move on to the next grade. Each grade is a challenge… and we all have different challenges.

All I can say, I don’t make the rules. But I pass on what I learn (properly referenced)

So

All I can do then, is try my hardest to pass the tests, ergo advance through life’s challenges, and in the end, pass the final final exam … right?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

why the massive push back, justification, excuses ,etc by people in that highlighted sin for remaining in that sin ?

especially considering those consequences

Lol…thank you, and vice versa on warning for causing dissension over tradition with a capital “t”, and not telling parishiners about making election sure not just by keeping rules and sacraments but sureness of new birth and fully trusting in Jesus Christ.

I would say it a bit differently

IF one is living a sacramental life, "till the end" then THEY are going to be OK in the end, NOT because I said so, for who am I? … but because Jesus stands behind His sacraments He established and the promises He made in those sacraments for our salvation.

 

[mcq72]

IF one is living a sacramental life, "till the end" then THEY are going to be OK in the end , NOT because I said so, for who am I? … but because Jesus stands behind His sacraments He established and the promises He made in those sacraments for our salvation.

Ok…for some that might be fine, for others no …such righteous works may still cover an unregenerated spirit, like Nicodemus, who also lived a sacramental life, as ordained up to his time, but was not fit for the kingdom.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

IF one is living a sacramental life, "till the end" then THEY are going to be OK in the end , NOT because I said so, for who am I? … but because Jesus stands behind His sacraments He established and the promises He made in those sacraments for our salvation.

Ok…for some that might be fine, for others no …such righteous works may still cover an unregenerated spirit, like Nicodemus, who also lived a sacramental life, as ordained up to his time, but was not fit for the kingdom.

I’d say it looks like Nicodemus got directly involved in the beginning,

John, xix, 39, where he is shown cooperating with Joseph of Arimathea in the embalming and burial of Jesus.