The Universal Church

[MichaelP3]

I showed you 2 early examples at the ecumenical council level, The Second Council of Lyons (1274) and the Council of Ferrara-Florence (1438-39) were the first efforts on a large scale took place. And at Florence were at least some representatives of all the other Eastern Churches;

Hey Steve. Now a simple google search will give that the history, period and background of these council are sketchy to say the least. But as we all know you will dismiss that so what properly referenced source would you recommend I read considering those areas highlighted regarding these councils?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

I addressed that.

It pertains to local bishops.

I don’t recall you doing so. There’s no mention I can find of this not applying to the Bishop of Rome. Is he above the Canons?

Showing you that efforts started way before Vat II

Are you saying we should toss out the current efforts because of a failure 600-800 years ago?

You still avoid the fact 70% of Orthodoxy (the Russians) are in schism from the ecumenical patriach

I did, here. I can’t help it if you won’t accept the response.

Q:​

Technically Constantinople doesn’t exist anymore. Why do you keep using that name?

AND

You completely miss the point.

What is the purpose of the Ecumenical Patriarch, your title for him, if 70% of Orthodoxy is no longer in union with him?

 

[Isaac14]

I’m not answering your questions until you stop dodging mine.

 

[ziapueblo]

Selective quoting recognized

You are a funny guy! Of course you would say this lol

ZP

 

[ziapueblo]

What is the purpose of the Ecumenical Patriarch , your title for him, if 70% of Orthodoxy is no longer in union with him?

The MP is the only Church which has broken Eucharist communion with him.

ZP

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

I showed you 2 early examples at the ecumenical council level, The Second Council of Lyons (1274) and the Council of Ferrara-Florence (1438-39) were the first efforts on a large scale took place. And at Florence were at least some representatives of all the other Eastern Churches;

Hey Steve. Now a simple google search will give that the history, period and background of these council are sketchy to say the least…

Is google different in S, Africa than it is in the rest of the world?

See this encyclical start reading in the 2nd paragraph

Point being, The efforts at reunion were already being addressed at the ecumenical council level.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

What is the purpose of the Ecumenical Patriarch , your title for him, if 70% of Orthodoxy is no longer in union with him?

The MP is the only Church which has broken Eucharist communion with him.

ZP

MP… EP?

Who’s who?

 

[steve-b]

I’m not answering your questions until you stop dodging mine.

Wait a minute

That’s your answer to this?

 

[MichaelP3]

Guess we work with pigeons here.

Thanks will check and get back to you on whether it answered my concerns. And to see how you see it.

But as a side-note to everyone else. Research those councils and take the history and background in. It should speak for itself quite soon.

 

[ziapueblo]

MP… EP?

Who’s who?

I’m pretty sure, someone as smart as you, knows

ZP

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

What is the purpose of the Ecumenical Patriarch , your title for him, if 70% of Orthodoxy is no longer in union with him?

The MP is the only Church which has broken Eucharist communion with him.

ZP

So the Russians haven’t broken communion with the EP?

SO

This news is incorrect? Russians break with Constantinople

 

[mcq72]

how the patriarchal system developed in the East, to try and equalize the authority of the pope between 5 patriarchs , was NEVER accepted by the successor to Peter.

And as could be said likewise, Rome has an authority problem.

Pretty sure Rome"s supremacy was contested from the beginning also.

Who are you lecturing about synods ?

No just stating they existed as norm of governance early on.

I noticed an early canon for bishops to meet twice a year. Not sure if that was provincial or what, but doubt it meant all bishops thruout entire church.

go back and see all the councils Orthodoxy rejects

That is whole other topic. Apparently the " rejected" or non participatory councils were not that universal in their agenda, and dealt mostly with latin or western matters. Of course there may have been a few heretical ideas about papacy they rejected also, but again a western thing.

showed earlier 1500+ posts ago, how 1st among equals was never accepted by any pope

Understand, but again some see an authority problem that popes had.

 

[ziapueblo]

So the Russians haven’t broken communion with the EP?

I guess you chose not to read my quote:

The MP is the only Church which has broken Eucharist communion with him.

ZP

 

[Isaac14]

I noticed an early canon for bishops to meet twice a year. Not sure if that was provincial or what, but doubt it meant all bishops thruout entire church.

The synod of bishops for Orthodox Church meets at least twice a year in accordance with this canon

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

how the patriarchal system developed in the East, to try and equalize the authority of the pope between 5 patriarchs , was NEVER accepted by the successor to Peter.

And as could be said likewise, Rome has an authority problem.

Pretty sure Rome"s supremacy was contested from the beginning also.

Who are you lecturing about synods ?

No just stating they existed as norm of governance early on.

I noticed an early canon for bishops to meet twice a year. Not sure if that was provincial or what, but doubt it meant all bishops thruout entire church.

go back and see all the councils Orthodoxy rejects

That is whole other topic. Apparently the " rejected" or non participatory councils were not that universal in their agenda, and dealt mostly with latin or western matters. Of course there may have been a few heretical ideas about papacy they rejected also, but again a western thing.

showed earlier 1500+ posts ago, how 1st among equals was never accepted by any pope

Understand, but again some see an authority problem that popes had.

People who insist on making an argument circular, and keep it circular, have the authority problem.

 

[mcq72]

People who insist on making an argument circular, and keep it circular, have the authority problem

Lol, can seem to cut both ways …doesn’t leave you out of the loop though.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

So the Russians haven’t broken communion with the EP?

I guess you chose not to read my quote:

The MP is the only Church which has broken Eucharist communion with him.

ZP

2 people are mentioned in the article

KIEV, Ukraine — The Russian Orthodox Patriarchate of Moscow has cut ties with the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I, claiming his recognition of an independent Orthodox Church in Ukraine departed from Orthodox Christian norms.

Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, who heads foreign relations for the Russian Orthodox Church, said Russian Orthodox leaders decided to “break the Eucharistic communion” in response to actions it called “lawless and canonically void…”

SO

Reading the entire article

What distinction are you trying to make that is different or contradicts what I said?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

People who insist on making an argument circular, and keep it circular, have the authority problem

Lol, can seem to cut both ways …doesn’t leave you out of the loop though.

That presumes one isn’t over the other and both are equal.

OH wait!

One IS over the other(s). Because that is how Jesus established Peter to be.

 

[ziapueblo]

Not sure what your getting at but honestly, I don’t care.

We both have provided what we believe to be properly referenced material (although when anybody references something that stumps you or you disagree with, you respond like so:

Selective quoting recognized

Or

Wrong-o buck-o

And

Anyway, have a fruitful Great Lent!

ZP

 

[Isaac14]

Wait a minute

That’s your answer to this?

I said I’m not answering your questions until you stop dodging mine.

The question I had asked is why something from 800 years ago should determine how we view the current dialogue.