The Universal Church

[TULIPed]

You’re right. He was a male French lawyer. Would be nice if we could wave a wand and make him a (forgiving, nice and gentle - especially with rear molars) female American dental hygienist, but a French lawyer he will always be.

 

[MichaelP3]

It doesn’t change who Calvin was.

Strange you would say that! As he properly referenced whatever he wrote. Do you have a properly referenced reference for “what he was”? Or are we going to get “your opinion” on this one?

Mighty talk for someone who haven’t studied the man? Except maybe for what others said about him

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Show where I ever expected that.

Since you pretty regularly dismiss the work of this commission (and in particular statements from the Balamand, Ravenna, and Chieti meetings) as not being “final”, you’ll have to forgive me being confused as to what you expect out it.

I don’t dismiss the commission. NOR do I project outcomes of dialogues. Especially when this discussion has been going on for 1000 yrs.

 

[Isaac14]

I don’t dismiss the commission. NOR do I project outcomes of dialogues. Especially when this discussion has been going on for 1000 yrs.

That being the case, do you agree with the outcomes of particular meetings of that dialogue; Balamand, Ravenna, & Chieti, for example?

 

[JonNC]

I’m sure they respect her as I do for who she is and what she did… but don’t have the need to pray to her for prayers that will lead us to Jesus… as I do.

If I understand you correctly, yes. Lutherans believe that, while the saints in Heaven pray for us, there is no example, command or promise for invocation of the saints.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

It doesn’t change who Calvin was.

Strange you would say that! As he properly referenced whatever he wrote. Do you have a properly referenced reference for “what he was”? Or are we going to get “your opinion” on this one?

Mighty talk for someone who haven’t studied the man? Except maybe for what others said about him

Just one of his heretical beliefs

Double Predestination What Does the Church Say About Predestination?

 

[MichaelP3]

You see Steve-b, you are not getting the “information”. You are reading what “others” said about that. And that is probably the “thing” everyone but you realise in all of this.

Don’t post an article that “someone” posted about something and claim that is that because it is “properly referenced”. It may be but it is still someone. That is the flaw in all you do here and you fail to realise that.

So if you want to post something on “double predestination” then tell me “properly referenced” what Calvin said. Unless you peek into his writings you simply cannot do that. You must surely understand this?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

I don’t dismiss the commission. NOR do I project outcomes of dialogues. Especially when this discussion has been going on for 1000 yrs.

That being the case, do you agree with the outcomes of particular meetings of that dialogue; Balamand, Ravenna, & Chieti, for example?

Chieti being the latest of the dialogues Re: "synodality and primacy “ in the 1st millennium which goes back to 2016. http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...cumenical/orthodox/upload/Chieti-Response.pdf

Couched between all the verbage, is that the disagreements are still over the same issues.

 

[mcq72]

Are we going to argue over Synonyms T?

Yes. Apparently there is no difference between “great” and “greatest” ?

You take liberty here, again.

Let Iranaeus speak for himself. He says enough to possibly aid the CC argument. Stretching weakens the argument in my opinion.

Your synonym list have zero context.

 

[steve-b]

You see Steve-b, you are not getting the “information”. You are reading what “others” said about that. And that is probably the “thing” everyone but you realise in all of this.

Don’t post an article that “someone” posted about something and claim that is that because it is “properly referenced”. It may be but it is still someone. That is the flaw in all you do here and you fail to realise that.

So if you want to post something on “double predestination” then tell me “properly referenced” what Calvin said. Unless you peek into his writings you simply cannot do that. You must surely understand this?

Tim Staples WAS a Calvinist. Is God’s Election of the Faithful Unconditional? | Catholic Answers

Tim Staples quotes Calvin’s teaching. Quoting the very textbook you want ME to read.

 

[mcq72]

Main point in that analogy

I’ll just say,

Unlike Calvin,

Augustine and Cyprian didn’t leave the Church, nor cause heresy or schism with their teachings.

Well, the pope was wise enough to listen to Cyprian on occassion if I recall.

As for Augustine, i have heard he bowed to Rome enough to keep them happy, the thing being quite mutual.

Yet your stance is very unhistorical or at least laden with bias, that nothing changed in teaching or practice in a thousand years that elapsed up to Calvin, and insinuating Augustine and Cyprian would continue to " go along to get along"… And I wonder if CC anathemizes some of Calvins points even though some are quite foundationally Augustinian.

I wonder to if the CC has its own version of indifferentism, that the main thing is dont rock the boat, teach what you want as long as it is not too controversial, even push the envelope , just remain Catholic and loyal to its power and heirarchy.

Rock the boat and a teaching that might have been tolerated as a Catholic is now anathemized?

 

[mcq72]

Peter focused on Jews, Paul on Gentiles. No conflict on Paul’s part. Besides, Paul’s restriction on himself doesn’t pass onto Peter. Peter is over the WHOLE Church.

? Doesn’t address your contention that if an apostle had anything to do with a church, he was a " founder" of said particular church, justifying Iranaeus writing Paul/ Peter founded Rome’s church, even though Paul admits some churches (Romes)were started by others.

 

[mcq72]

you completely disregard the bios of those 12 bishops mentioned by name, in succession from Peter,

And you continue to disregard that Iranaeus mentions succession from Peter and Paul as apostles only, not Peter bishop of Rome anachronism.

 

[MichaelP3]

Tim Staples WAS a Calvinist. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-gods-election-of-the-faithful-unconditional

Tim Staples quotes Calvin’s teaching. Quoting the very textbook you want ME to read.

You are still missing all of it! It doesn’t matter what Mr Staples was and what he quoted. It utterly violates what you are trying to propose with “properly referenced” pieces of information when it is so easy for you to go to the source. And the source is right there. Nobody is hiding it. You cannot possibly expect anyone to believe you know anything about Calvin (Especially if you judge so quickly when they do not properly reference anything). So ergo, you cannot comment anything on Calvin! That is by YOUR thinking. So do not say anything about him until you go past your fears and research his works. Simple! You could learn something. Actually you very obviously will learn a lot!

 

[annad347]

So, has there been an answer that the foundation of the church Jesus placed on Peter the Rock is found in all universal catholic churches or is it still thought that foundation is solely in the one Catholic church?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Are we going to argue over Synonyms T?

Yes. Apparently there is no difference between “great” and “greatest” ?

You take liberty here, again.

Let Iranaeus speak for himself. He says enough to possibly aid the CC argument. Stretching weakens the argument in my opinion.

Your synonym list have zero context.

Re: Preeminent ?

THAT’s a pretty strong word. Especially in how Irenaeus used it.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Tim Staples WAS a Calvinist. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-gods-election-of-the-faithful-unconditional

Tim Staples quotes Calvin’s teaching. Quoting the very textbook you want ME to read.

You are still missing all of it! It doesn’t matter what Mr Staples was and what he quoted. It utterly violates what you are trying to propose with “properly referenced” pieces of information when it is so easy for you to go to the source. …

You are missing the point. I know who Calvin is. I don’t need you to try and spruce him up.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

you completely disregard the bios of those 12 bishops mentioned by name, in succession from Peter,

And you continue to disregard that Iranaeus mentions succession from Peter and Paul as apostles only, not Peter bishop of Rome anachronism.

Are you doubting Peter was bishop? Or are you doubting Peter was bishop of Rome?

From Church History (Book V)Eusebius, Ch 28, For they say that all the early teachers and the apostles received and taught what they now declare, and that the truth of the Gospel was preserved until the times of Victor, who was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter,

 

[mcq72]

Re: Preeminent ?

THAT’s a pretty strong word. Especially in how Irenaeus used it.

Yes it is and I acknowkedged such, but when you stretch great to greatest, and Peter and Paul to just Peter, and many apostles and their church successions to only Rome’s, contrary to Iranaeus, one can’t help but ponder that you even stretch the strength and understanding of preeminence.

 

[Isaac14]

Couched between all the verbage, is that the disagreements are still over the same issues.

I though it was a pretty big deal to come the agreement that Rome did not exercise canonical authority over the East during the first millennium