The Universal Church

[steve-b]

mcq72:

steve-b:

who are actually revolters

That is, was, a whole other issue back then when there was no freedom for such reformed religion

Error has no rights: http://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_20061888_libertas.html

 

[Margaret_Ann]

steve-b:

When the Russians boycotted what was supposed to be the Pan Orthodox council, in 2016, that shows where ~70% of Orthodoxy is to this day. Unless you know differently, that schism between the EP and the Russian Orthodox, is still in place

This is an issue internal to the Orthodox Church. I haven’t said this issue has gone away, only that it does not impact the ongoing dialogue between the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

Actually, it does make an impact. Whichever side Rome talks to the other (EP or MP) will not be satisfied.

 

[Isaac14]

Actually, it does make an impact. Whichever side Rome talks to the other (EP or MP) will not be satisfied.

The commission met in Nov 2019, well after the EP/MP situation unfolded. Sure it may impact the work, but i suspect they’re trying to work through it.

 

[steve-b]

Isaac14:

steve-b:

When the Russians boycotted what was supposed to be the Pan Orthodox council, in 2016, that shows where ~70% of Orthodoxy is to this day. Unless you know differently, that schism between the EP and the Russian Orthodox, is still in place

This is an issue internal to the Orthodox Church. I haven’t said this issue has gone away, only that it does not impact the ongoing dialogue between the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

Actually, it does make an impact. Whichever side Rome talks to the other (EP or MP) will not be satisfied.

It’s been a long effort for sure

 

[steve-b]

Margaret_Ann:

Actually, it does make an impact. Whichever side Rome talks to the other (EP or MP) will not be satisfied.

The commission met in Nov 2019, well after the EP/MP situation unfolded. Sure it may impact the work, but i suspect they’re trying to work through it.

Has anyone said anything differently? No

Likewise

given how long this dialogue has been going on, ( 1000 yrs) and we can read the results over time, of those dialogues, then it’s reasonable to say, one shouldn’t get too worked up, too soon, over recent dialogues that like the others, is ongoing.

 

[Isaac14]

So no response to the Chieti statement that agrees Rome never exercised canonical authority over the East?

Edit to add:

Has anyone said anything differently? No

Well, then, why do you keep harping on the Russia/Constantinople non-schism?

 

[steve-b]

So no response to the Chieti statement that agrees Rome never exercised canonical authority over the East?

You seem to be denying the fact the Orthodox, have authority issues even in your own individual churches.

When ~70% of Orthodoxy is in schism from your own EP, THAT’S an authority issue. And that happened in 2016 about the same time of the Chieti dialogue.

 

[steve-b]

So no response to the Chieti statement that agrees Rome never exercised canonical authority over the East?

Edit to add:

steve-b:

Has anyone said anything differently? No

Well, then, why do you keep harping on the Russia/Constantinople non-schism?

non-schism? Really?

 

[Isaac14]

non-schism? Really?

You must not have read my previous post.

 

[Isaac14]

You seem to be denying the fact the Orthodox, have authority issues even in your own individual churches.

Non sequitur.

They are talking about the first millennium.

But if you want to disregard/dodge that, that’s fine.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

non-schism? Really?

You must not have read my previous post.

Well,

For some clarification, on terms

Just as Byzantium doesn’t exist anymore

AND

Constantinople doesn’t exist anymore

SO

Why avoid saying the city is Istanbul now?

AND

The Orthodox churches in the first millennium, had the same authority issues with The pope then, that the current schism, the Russian Orthodox have, only this time, their schism is with your own Orthodox EP in Istanbul.

Point being,

as I understand it, THEY, the Russians, make up ~70% of Orthodoxy today.

So

another point being

Who even presumes to speak for the Orthodox in general across all lines, authoritatively, when a majority of the Orthodox, aren’t in union with your own EP?

As far as Synodality and Primacy as discussion on authority in that Chieti dialogue

The Russians, boycotted the synod in 2016, which was supposed to be a Pan Orthodox synod. So much for Synodality

AND

So much for the title "First among Equals" which is a title for the EP of Orthodoxy. The same title the Orthodox give the pope.

And

As I quoted before,

Fr Ambrose ROCOR, says "First among equals is a nonsense term."

 

[Isaac14]

The Orthodox churches in the first millennium,

…were not presided over by Rome. Period.

The rest of what you wrote dodges and goes off on tangents that, while not irrelevant, don’t address the fact that Rome, supposedly supreme, didn’t exercise authority over the East. Rome was indeed highly respect by all.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

The Orthodox churches in the first millennium,

…were not presided over by Rome. Period.

The rest of what you wrote dodges and goes off on tangents that, while not irrelevant, don’t address the fact that Rome, supposedly supreme, didn’t exercise authority over the East. Rome was indeed highly respect by all.

Dodge all YOU want, authority is a huge problem for the Orthodox.

 

[Isaac14]

Dodge all YOU want, authority is a huge problem for the Orthodox.

If that’s the case, why did the Catholic Bishops & theologians at Chieti agree that Rome never exercised authority over the East during the first millennium?

 

[Isaac14]

Why avoid saying the city is Istanbul now?

Because the Ecumenical Patriarch refers to his see by that name? Shall he change the title he has held since 451 AD?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Dodge all YOU want, authority is a huge problem for the Orthodox.

If that’s the case, why did the Catholic Bishops & theologians at Chieti agree that Rome never exercised authority over the East during the first millennium?

Think about it.

Did Jesus limit Peter on what part of the Church he is not over? NO

If people don’t accept the authority Jesus put in place, what THEN?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Why avoid saying the city is Istanbul now?

Because the Ecumenical Patriarch refers to his see by that name? Shall he change the title he has held since 451 AD?

Constantinople doesn’t exist

When the long-lasting Ottoman Empire finally collapsed in 1923, the new Republic of Turkey officially changed Constantinople’s name to Istanbul. (They also changed the new capital’s name from Angora to Ankara.) This did not stop foreign travelers, businesses, and even governments from calling the city “Constantinople." That changed in 1930, once mail addressed to Constantinople—including paychecks, shipping forms, and other legal documents—stopped being delivered to any home or business in Istanbul.

From: https://www.nationalgeographic.org/thisday/mar28/istanbul-not-constantinople/

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Not to derail this thread but I couldn’t resist:

 

[GKMotley]

I was 13…

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Sorry! I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings.