"The Universal Mediatrix"

[CentralFLJames]

Define “huge on Mariology”. This is the sum total of all St. Irenaeus ever wrote on Mariology:

Are you advocating here a principal that “more is better”? If so, I find this to be a rather unorthodox approach for an “Orthodox sort of guy”. Didn’t anyone tell you that you guys are suppose to be big on Mary? Are you a new convert to Orthodoxy?

I suppose a picture or icon is worth a thousand words but I thought Saint Irenaeus’ concise, though admittedly minimalist and less than iconic prose to be quite a good thumbnail portrait. Are you sure you are not out of school with your patriarchs brother? After all they had a royal hissy fit at us Latin Catholics just for adding the single sentence (Filioque clause) to the Creed. If that excess verbosity was offensive to the Orthodox preference for brevity I can’t imagine why you would complain about a “less is more” approach to Maryology. Is it evidence or not?

But now you have me wondering here if perhaps Franciscan Friar William of Ockham stole his idea ofOccam’s Razor from Irenaeus …

St. Ambrose does indeed proclaim Mary as the ideal of virginity whom all other women choosing the life of virginity should emulate, but he preaches none of the “exclusively Catholic” Marian dogmas – the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, or this Mediatrix business. The same applies to St. Augustine, although he is often cited wrongly as supporting the Immaculate Conception when he affirms Mary’s personal sinlessness, but this cannot be the case because he elsewhere wrote, “Christ’s flesh was not sinful, because it was not born of Mary by ordinary generation; but because death is the effect of sin, this flesh, in being mortal, had the likeness of sinful flesh.” (Reply to Faustus the Manichean 14:5)

I never claimed that these ECF’s “had it all” with respect to Marian dogma formation. I only claimed that there were initial works in place as a foundation for further discernment from the existing deposit of faith. Does the Holy Spirit not get to do His work in The Church according to His own schedule? Is this stated anywhere in scripture? For that matter without going to the Catholic Catechism can you show from scripture where it tells us that all public revelation ends with the apostles or are you relying on the Latin Church for this teaching?

Maybe I’ve missed it, but I’ve found nothing in St. Cyril of Jerusalem’s writings on Mariology. And you’re welcome to peruse my thread “Pope Leo the Great on the Immaculate Conception” if you want evidence that St. Leo believed no such thing about Mary.

–Mike

I have not fully exhausted the saints works myself. But you have not heard of the Mother of God/Theotokos defenses of St. Cyrl? He was the principal advocate of the title “Theotokos” during the Council of Ephesus (431).

His writings include the homily given in Ephesus and several other sermons. In several writings, Cyril focuses on the love of Jesus to his mother.** On the Cross, he overcomes his pain and thinks of his mother. At the wedding in Cana, he bows to her wishes. The overwhelming merit of Cyril of Alexandria is the cementation of the centre of dogmatic mariology for all times. Cyril is credited with creating a basis for all other mariological developments through his teaching of the blessed Virgin Mary, as the Mother of God.**

More here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria#Mariology

James

 

[mpartyka]

mpartyka:

Maybe I’ve missed it, but I’ve found nothing in St. Cyril of Jerusalem’s writings on Mariology.

…you have not heard of the Mother of God/Theotokos defenses of St. Cyrl? He was the principal advocate of the title “Theotokos” during the Council of Ephesus (431).

Ah. Wrong Cyril, then. You meant St. Cyril of Alexandria.

Cyril is credited with creating a basis for all other mariological developments through his teaching of the blessed Virgin Mary, as the Mother of God.

That doesn’t surprise me in the least, seeing that St. Cyril was directly involved in the Nestorian controversy which bore directly on Mary. It’s been a while since I read him, so I’ll have to make another pass through his writings when I get a chance.

–Mike

 

[mich2]

Nevertheless…Mary assisted God in the creation of the universe? In the creation of Adam and Eve? In the exodus of the Jews from Egypt? And the same applies to all the saints in heaven to some degree? The Fathers never taught anything like this. This is, to be frank, insanity.

You know that our beliefs on Jesus,Mike, is just as ridiculous in the eyes of atheists, or profane in the eyes of non-christians. You maybe right in not
accepting Mary in such a way; and if you’re right, it makes us wrong to view Mary in such a way. However, the same can be said for our (and yours) beliefs in Jesus. If Christianity is wrong, then we are clearly guilty of a great sin of idolatry.,

In the second century church, Mary was viewed in terms of a New Eve, as Jesus is viewed as the New Adam.This alone can imply a great number of Marian doctrines. Eve was not created the same as the other living beings, but was created from the side of Adam. Now, before you imply this to mean that she was simply human and not as the other animals, let us understand that they were in Paradise, where the animals in question are actually angels, the serpent being the symbol of Satan. Mary’s unity to God, I believe, is very different from ours, making her indeed separate from the rest of humanity.
If you would like a scriptural reference, I personally would view Mary’s spirit as being the Wisdom of God. She, the scriptures tell us, was created before the rest of creation and was used as a “template” for creation.
Non catholics will view Wisdom as being Jesus. However, Wisdom, in scriptures is clearly feminine in nature and a created being.

Proverbs 8:22
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works

**23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, **

Notice that she was brought forth from Eternity(Father) from the Beginning(Son) Before the World began (Spirit; creative agent of God)

Lady Wisdom is “the first of His works of old” (verse22). She was “established” (verse 23); she herself was “given birth” (verse 24). In sum, Lady Wisdom is a creature. She had a beginning

This testify Wisdom as not being co-eternal with the Father, whereas the Word of God is clearly identified as being equally God in the Old Testament scriptures.

**
Genesis
Chapter 15
1
Some time after these events, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram! I am your shield; I will make your reward very great.”
2
But Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what good will your gifts be, if I keep on being childless and have as my heir the steward of my house, Eliezer?” **

The image of Wisdom is that of a fiance, wife and mother.

John, in his epistle, seems to call the Church by the word “Lady”…this cannot be the body of Christ, or could it be? If, by the body of Christ, we mean Jesus, no, but if the body (humanity)of Christ, was taken directly from Mary, then I don’t see the problem.

In Reverlation, the woman giving birth is clearly the Church, but certainly not Jesus. Therefore, the Church, being the body of Christ, can, in my opinion, be both, the Son of God (Isreal is my firstborn Son) or the Spouce of God (I am the husband of Isreal), the latter being fulfilled in the person of Mary.

Andre

 

[Tomster]

Wow. There is no Feast of Our Lady, Universal Mediatrix of all Graces. May 31 this year is the Feast of Pentecost. Nor is Our Lady, Universal Mediatrix of all Graces a title given to Mary by the Church. Do a search and you will find that one website is the only place on the entire web where such a title appears.

As to the question of whether the Bishop of Rome or Mary “takes the place of” the Holy Spirit, the obvious answer is, only if the prophets and writers of Scripture also “took the place of” the Holy Spirit. Can’t claim one without the other.

In his encyclical “Ubi Primum” Pope Pius IX writes: “The foundation of all Our confidence, as you well know, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”

Particularly significant as revealing the mind of the Church is the special feast of Mary Mediatrix of All graces approved and commended by Pope Benedict XV in the year 1921, and observed in numerous dioceses on May 31. The central theme of the feast is Our Lady’s role in the actual dispensation of all graces. Consequently, the Office and Mass abound in references to this doctrine.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[bluejesuit]

Mediatrix and Co-Redemptix are the hardest teachings of Christianity; but I would say not simply because of the subtle and sublime nature of the teachings that can be confused with idolatry, or even lead to idolatry, but because they are terms that really are about us, and our role in God’s plan.

The below video is a very good explanation of the doctrines.

airmaria.com/?sn=48&vp=2574&prefx=mcast&plyrnb=1&ttl=Marycast

Another interesting site with in depth articles
marymediatrix.com/

Remember the fundamental meaning of Co-Redemptrix in its purest Latin sense is WITH THE REDEEMER. Don’t take it in the English context of CO.

Isn’t Mary with the Redeemer? And is fully cooperating for the salvation of HIS SON’S people? How can this be idolatry?

I say it’s ignorance.

AM+DG:thumbsup:

 

[rad314]

I say it’s ignorance.

I assume you mean it’s ignorance to call it idolatry.

(Just so no one will be confused.)

 

[mpartyka]

…personally would view Mary’s spirit as being the Wisdom of God. She, the scriptures tell us, was created before the rest of creation and was used as a “template” for creation. Non catholics will view Wisdom as being Jesus. However, Wisdom, in scriptures is clearly feminine in nature and a created being…she was brought forth from Eternity(Father) from the Beginning(Son) Before the World began (Spirit; creative agent of God). Lady Wisdom is “the first of His works of old” (verse22). She was “established” (verse 23); she herself was “given birth” (verse 24). In sum, Lady Wisdom is a creature. She had a beginning. This testify Wisdom as not being co-eternal with the Father, whereas the Word of God is clearly identified as being equally God in the Old Testament scriptures…

Allow me to use the traditional anti-Arian response: “If the Wisdom of God is created, then that means there was a time when God had no Wisdom, which is impious to say.”

Anybody else want to pitch in? Surely I’m not the only person who finds it scary that Mary would be raised to the level of the Wisdom of God. (And this is the second time that’s happened, by the way – not once – twice – and by two different folks.)

–Mike

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Allow me to use the traditional anti-Arian response: “If the Wisdom of God is created, then that means there was a time when God had no Wisdom, which is impious to say.”

Anybody else want to pitch in? Surely I’m not the only person who finds it scary that Mary would be raised to the level of the Wisdom of God. (And this is the second time that’s happened, by the way – not once – twice – and by two different folks.)

–Mike

I have never heard of Mary being compared to the Wisdom of God, so I cannot comment on that, but I notice you’ve ignored the links and commentary on the word “co-” and how it implies Mary’s participation with Jesus, and not being equal to Jesus. That is the doctrine to focus on if you are interested in these doctrines. Have I somehow missed your responses to these answers, or did you just choose to ignore them in favor of more sensational teachings?

However, despite the fact I have not heard of Mary being compared to the Wisdom of God, and despite the fact I don’t necessarily agree, saying that a created being is associated with an attribute of God does not in any way suggest that that attribute was not pre-existant as a part of God. That’s flawed reasoning on your part. Every created being reflects some attribute of God, and their reflection in no way dis-invests the source of that attribute.

 

[CentralFLJames]

A “must read” saint for those wanting to have more insight into Mariology is St. Boneventure (1221-1274 AD) - a Seraphic Doctor of the Church, Cardinal-Bishop of Albano, Minister General of the Friars Minor. Pope Leo XIII called him the Prince of Mystics. This man was an intelllectual giant right up there with St. Ausustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and surpasses the mysticism of St. Bernard.

He wrote the famous The Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary which mirrors the 150 Davidic Psalms by placing Mary as the object of veneration. He also here models Marian canticles, hymns and creeds after the following: Canticle on of Isaias (XII); Canticle of Ezechias (Is. XXXVIII); Canticle of Anna; Canticle of Mary (Exod. XV); Canticle of Habacuc’s (III); Canticle of Moses (Deut. XXXII); Canticle of the Three Children; Canticle of Zacharias (Luke I) a Hymn modeled on “Te Deum”; a Marian Creed after the Manner of that of St. Athanasius.

Read this preface to the Psalter of the BVM to get insight of what is in this saint’s mind and heart. From this a person can see Mary as the face of Wisdom.
Preface from The Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary:

“Take hold on her, and she shall exalt thee: thou shalt be glorified by her, when thou shalt embrace her. She shall give to thy head increase of graces, and protect thee with a noble crown.” (Prov. IV, 8-9.)

Glory be to God on high, and thanksgiving, and the voice of praise, who at one time by the mysteries of prophecy, at another by oracles from Heaven, again by the reading of the Gospel, and now by the mouth of preachers, in many ways and by divers channels, most sincerely urges and invites us to honor the Virgin Mary, the Queen of Heaven and of the Angels; that by her holy merits, most worthy of all acceptance, we, being delivered from the depths of hell, may be inscribed by her in the ranks of the angels. Wherefore, although Solomon spoke the aforesaid words of Wisdom, nevertheless the Holy Spirit, by a mystical application, intends them to be understood of the most excellent Virgin Mary.

By means of these words, dearly beloved, He is drawing you to His love, and by various promises is attracting and softening your hearts, that you may enjoy His divine embraces. His meaning is that you will obtain four wonderful gifts, if this glorious Virgin is joined to you by a spiritual bond, and is embraced by you in the arms of fervent desire, with great reverence and devotion. First, she will bring you exaltation; and she shall exalt thee; secondly, glorification; and thou shalt be glorified by her; thirdly, the abundance of graces; she shall give to thy head increase of graces; fourthly, the unfading crown of perpetual glory, and protect thee with a noble crown. Therefore I beseech thee, dearly beloved and most desired, do not repel so noble and so beautiful a virgin; do not make little of so admirable and revered a queen as the Virgin Mary: lest, if she should see herself despised by you, you will be, I will not say, deprived of such great favors, but, which God forbid, you will incur perpetual evils. Expand the bosom of your mind to serve her, prepare your heart to praise and glorify her, loose your tongue, and with swift service hasten to please her. For there is no doubt that from her nearness to you, you will become more devout, from contact with her you will grow more pure, from her embrace you will abound more in grace and be more resplendent in purity. That I may give you an occasion of obtaining such great gifts, I send you the Psalter of this most Holy Virgin, put together and composed indeed by my feeble intelligence, but with her grace and help; by means of it you will praise with divers hymns, now her virginity and chastity, now her fecundity and sanctity, now her clemency and bounty. You will be able to salute her as full of all grace, or as filled with all knowledge, or as illumined by all understanding and wisdom. There you will bless the Fruit of her glorious womb, the members of His holy body, and the prerogatives of His soul, bestowing all sanctity. There you will invoke the aid of all the choirs of angels to praise her, and of all the multitudes of holy men, the isles of the nations, the heavens, the beauty of all luminaries and of the whole world. There you will beseech her to destroy the power of your spiritual enemies, to obtain for you pardon of all your sins that she may render the great Judge propitious to you, that she may illumine your deathbed by her gracious presence, and obtain for you joy without end. Therefore, O dearly beloved souls, graciously receive this little gift which I offer you, and strive to draw fruit there from; by means of it frequently praise the Mother of God; and thus perchance she will turn to you her gracious countenance, receiving you to her love, refreshing your soul in the present, and placing upon your head a crown of precious stones in the world to come.

Psalm 20 from The Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary:

PSALM 20
O Lady, in thy strength our heart shall rejoice: and in the sweetness of thy name our soul shall be consoled.
From thy throne send us wisdom: by which we shall be sweetly enlightened in all truth.
Give us grace to abstain from carnal desires: that the light of thy grace may arise in our hearts.
How sweet are thy words, O Lady, to them that love thee: how sweet is the shower of thy graces.
I will sing unto thy glory and honor: and in thy name I will glory forever.

[PSALM 92 also has a reference to Wisdom]

James

 

[BRB1]

the word “co-” and how it implies Mary’s participation with Jesus, and not being equal to Jesus. .

co … is not used in reference to Mary’s relationship with Christ.

It is used in relationship to her helping / assisting man/woman in finding Christ.

Regarding her other roles [Advocatrix , Mediatrix ] … co is not appropriate. ‘co’ is not same as latin word ‘cum’ … which means with … which some Catholic video links mentioned here at CAF have [wrongly ?] implied.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

co … is not used in reference to Mary’s relationship with Christ.

It is used in relationship to her helping / assisting man/woman in finding Christ.

Regarding her other roles [Advocatrix , Mediatrix ] … co is not appropriate. ‘co’ is not same as latin word ‘cum’ … which means with … which some Catholic video links mentioned here at CAF have [wrongly ?] implied.

I’m really not following you. I am referring to the term Co-Redemptrix. What are you talking about?

 

[BRB1]

I’m really not following you. I am referring to the term Co-Redemptrix. What are you talking about?

co implies Mary’s relationship/assistance to man / woman, … not to Christ, as you suggested.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

co implies Mary’s relationship/assistance to man / woman, … not to Christ, as you suggested.

This is what I said, “and how it implies Mary’s participation with Jesus,” (in redemption). So I’m still not following you, but if your clarification helps someone, that’s great.

 

[BRB1]

Remember the fundamental meaning of Co-Redemptrix in its purest Latin sense is WITH THE REDEEMER. Don’t take it in the English context of CO.

:

That Mark Miravalle video link … states co = with. Cum is ‘pure’ Latin word for with.

 

[mich2]

Allow me to use the traditional anti-Arian response: “If the Wisdom of God is created, then that means there was a time when God had no Wisdom, which is impious to say.”

Anybody else want to pitch in? Surely I’m not the only person who finds it scary that Mary would be raised to the level of the Wisdom of God. (And this is the second time that’s happened, by the way – not once – twice – and by two different folks.)

–Mike

Who do you understand Lady Wisdom of the Old Testament scriptures to be,Mike? Do you see it as a reference to Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

sfarchdiocese.org/about-us/archbishop/archbishops-column/ArchbishopColumn/Blessing-of-the-Porziuncola-1571/

**…That’s why the readings and prayers of this dedication Mass today are those of Mary, Our Lady of the Angels. In our first reading we hear the praise of the Wisdom of God from the Old Testament, now seen by the Church as an early figure for Mary, the Mother of the Lord and the Seat of Wisdom. We hear Wisdom speak, “I am the mother of fair love, of fear, of knowledge, and of holy hope,” and it helps us understand how the angel Gabriel addresses Mary, beginning “Hail, full of grace.” **

Andre

 

[BRB1]

A “must read” saint for those wanting to have more insight into Mariology is St. Boneventure (1221-1274 AD)

This man was an intelllectual giant right up there with St. Ausustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and surpasses the mysticism of St. Bernard.

From this a person can see Mary as the face of Wisdom.

Haven’t read this yet, but does he teach beyond the following ?

1. Mary is not divine, she cannot save anyone.
2. Mary being the ‘most blessed among women’ … can and always has been able to withstand satan.
3. Mary is the greatest of all Saints, and has been given the unique grace to assist man/woman in resisting evil, and leading us to maturation of saving faith in her Son. [Her role as co-Redeemer] .
4. After fulfilling her role as co-Redeemer to her children, she further fulfills her other roles to Christ … as Advocatrix and Mediatrix.
5. Mary is identified by Gabriel as ‘already’ in possession of full grace [or highly favored status] when he appears to her. This implies at some point prior to this she had found/received full blessing/grace of God.
   Some will argue this could of happened at anytime after her birth, but prior to Gabriel’s declaration. But, it makes the most sense to accept that she was ‘spared’ from sin from her conception … much in same fashion as John the Baptist [filled with H.S. from the womb].
6. Mary appears among that special group of those in OT times who were supernaturally graced/blessed of God : Abraham, Moses, Noah, Elijah, Elisha, David, all the Major/Minor Prophets, and the especially the final prophet, The Baptist. Yet, she has a unique role in serving Christ, and us for all times … which makes her the greatest of these special Saints.

---

For example, some today believe Mary experienced no pains of childbirth & that Christ was born miraculously w/o passage via birth canal … although John in Rev. 12:2 suggest otherwise.

Furthermore, I don’t see reference to Mary & Christ in Genesis Chp. 3 … with the sole exception of verse 15. Verse 16 [and thereafter] is clearly back referencing Adam / Eve and their curse.

 

[mardukm]

It is strange to see people have to defend Marian devotion to one who claims to be Orthodox.

Orthodox traditionally exclaim “Mary, save us!” something not even Latins would do. And the Latins have certain exaltations of Mary that is not found among the Orthodox. Big deal.

We all know Mary is a creature, unlike the Trinity. We all know any “power” we assign to her is from God, not inherent in her (just like all the other saints). We all know that any attribute we assign to her is of Grace, and not because she is self-sufficient.

Once, again, this idea of having to defend Marian devotion to someone who claims to be Orthodox is strange, to say the least.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mpartyka]

Who do you understand Lady Wisdom of the Old Testament scriptures to be,Mike? Do you see it as a reference to Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Wisdom is traditionally understood to refer to Christ, who is “the power and wisdom of God” according to St. Paul. True, wisdom is depicted as female, but God the Son as God has no real gender (just as God the Father is not actually a male just because we use the male gender when referring to Him).

–Mike

 

[Tomster]

For what it’s worth.

The various degrees of theological certitude are:

1.) Dogma - an article of faith
2.) Certain - the unanimous teaching of theologians
3.) Commonly Accepted - taught by the majority of theologians
4.) Probable - held by distinguished theologians

The Mother of God holds a singular position in the economy of the Redemption, and consequently exercises an important function in our religious life. As Mother of Christ she is also our Mother for we are members of the Body of Christ. God had, in a measure, conditioned the work of our redemption on her consent and willingness to be the Mother of the one who was to be despised by men and to die on the cross. She gave her assent: " Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done unto me according to thy word" (Luke 1:38). Thus she became the coadjutrix in the work of Redemption, the Deaconess of Christ’s great sacrifice, by having borne Him and co-offered Him upon the cross. She became our Mother by bringing us forth in sorrow at the foot of the cross. This also forms the basis for the views of recent popes that Mary is intercessory mediatrix and stewardess of all graces. I emphasize the word “intercessory” for Christ will always remain the sole Mediator between God and man. But Mary, as Mother of Christ and our Mother, beseeches Christ to bring us into union with Him and from this motherly solicitude of Mary no one is excluded.

In conclusion:

1.) That Mary is the Mother of God - dogmatic
2.) That Mary was immaculately conceived - dogmatic
3.) That the body of Mary was was assumed in heaven - dogmatic
4.) That Mary is the mediatrix of graces because she bore Christ - dogmatic

For further study I refer to the ecclesiastical magisterium by which we mean the teaching of the Supreme Pontiff and of the bishops under him and with him. The solemn and extraordinary magisterium having made no decisions as yet on our subject, we must limit ourselves to the consideration of the ordinary magisterium as exercised by the popes only.

The writings and teachings of Popes Sixtus IV, Benedict XIV, Pius VII, Pius IX, Leo XIII, Benedict XV, Pius XI and Pius XII all affirm that Mary is the mediatrix of all graces.

For all Catholics, a good read are all of Pope Leo XIII “Rosary Encyclicals.” In his encyclical “Octobri mense” (1891) Pope Leo XIII has left us his most striking pronouncement of this subject. Having recalled that the eternal Son of God did not wish to accomplish the mystical union between Himself and mankind at the time of the Incarnation without first seeking the free consent of Our Lady as representative of the whole human race, the Pope adds:

“With equal truth can it be affirmed that, by the will of God, nothing of the immense treasure of every grace which the Lord has accumulated, comes to us except through Mary . . . How great are the wisdom and mercy revealed in this design of God . . . Mary is our glorious intermediary; she is the powerful Mother of the omnipotent God . . . This design of such dear mercy realized by God in Mary and confirmed by the testimony of Christ (John 19:26-27), was understood from the beginning and accepted with the utmost joy by the Holy Apostles and the earliest believers. It was also the belief and teaching of the venerable Fathers of the Church. All Christian peoples of every age accepted it unanimously . . . There is no other reason for this than a divine faith.”

 

[mpartyka]

Some will argue this could of happened at anytime after her birth, but prior to Gabriel’s declaration. But, it makes the most sense to accept that she was ‘spared’ from sin from her conception … much in same fashion as John the Baptist [filled with H.S. from the womb].

I think it’s interesting though, that St. Augustine, who himself said in regard to Mary’s personal sinlessness, “We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin,” still never went so far as to say that she was free from original sin. (Note also how he said Christ was “undoubtedly” free from sin but doesn’t apply that same level of certainty to Mary’s sinlessness.)

For example, some today believe Mary experienced no pains of childbirth & that Christ was born miraculously w/o passage via birth canal … although John in Rev. 12:2 suggest otherwise.

I find it even more interesting that the ECFs tended to believe that Christ passed through Mary’s birth canal without breaken her hymen. One would think that a broken hymen would testify to the reality of the Incarnation, but the ECFs refused to even consider that Mary would be any less physically a virgin than she was as a matter of fact.

–Mike