The Unknown Christianity

[Seeker100]

Agreed

And yet the very existance of this thread, which you have started, undercuts somewhat the argument made earlier where you said,

• One learns right from wrong from the Holy Ghost directly*. Man’s ways should never step inbetween.

God teaches us now in our hearts as He always has. It is our choice if we listen to it. No church doctrine can ever replace the voice of the Lord.
And yet, what is the purpose of your thread if it is not to expand upon God’s teaching; to help make it clearer to others; to help others learn “right from wrong” based upon what you have learned from the Holy Spirit (and from others whom you respect).
This is what Church doctrine is. It is simply the Church attempting to help the faithful live better lives, and to provide guideposts that allow the faithful to enter, with confidence, more deeply into the mysteries of God’s Love.
Truly there are those who need less “doctrine”, that is, less help in this. There are also those who need all the help they can get. After all, why should we not take advantage of all of the great writings and teachings of those who have gone before us?
In short, it is when God’s Love, active and nourished in us and in His Church, works with doctrine that the best results are achieved for the majority of people.

I agree with this basically, however - -
What does one do when two or more people, each being confident of their relationship with the Holy Spirit, prayerfully arrive at differing and opposing interpretations? Each feels the matter is critical to salvation and that their opponent is sinning by spreading a false Gospel. What does one do now?
Christ himself, in Matthew 18: 15-18 tells us to take it to, “The Church”, and that we need to abide by what, “The Church”, decides. Why does He tell us this? I believe it is for two reaons. The first and most obvious one is because He has given His Church on earth the authority to “Bind and Loose…Whatever”. The second is that such a system maintains unity in the body of Christ. Those who debate among themselves have a Christ appointed earthly arbiter. An arbiter to whom Christ Himself expects us to submit in humble obedience.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree that there needs to be checks and balances even within The Church. But, while we DO need to see our faith fully in the light of Love, we must not lose sight of the very real need, as Christ knew and provided, for an authoritave Church to deal with issues of disagreement when they come up.

Peace
James

I agree with you here, the church certainly does good by teaching about God. There is no problem with that. Also of course we should definitely take advantage of writings and teachings that have gone before us. This is for certain.

All of this is good however the final say as to what is true and how to evaluate any information from any source must be by the Holy Spirit in one’s heart. God must be the final authority of what is real.

The church provides a valuable service by teaching of God but we don’t believe Jesus is God because the church tells us Jesus is God, we believe Jesus is God because the Holy Spirit shows us that Jesus is God. The church has its place in making that information available that Jesus is God but we believe Jesus is God because of the Holy Ghost.

Churches teach valuable things but nobody should ever just agree with what is being taught because it is being taught by a church. Everything must be evaluated through the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the final say.

People disagreeing about what the Holy Ghost says it totally common place. This is totaly okay. As an individual you know what the Holy Spirit says and you follow it. Others that disagree may also be right and this is okay as they are working with different sets of information. All is well.

The Church certainly has authority on earth and it is the unity of Christians, however this Church is not Catholic church. The true Church of authority is the Body of Christ, it is the Kingdom of God. Christ is King of this Kingdom or Church and we all must submit to its Authority. Members of this true Body or Church come from all denominations including Catholics. It is made up of the people who obey God and love.

The Catholic church has its place and purpose. It like all the other denominations is to point to this Kingdom of God and help show all people to serve Jesus in each other.

 

[JRKH]

I agree with you here, the church certainly does good by teaching about God. There is no problem with that. Also of course we should definitely take advantage of writings and teachings that have gone before us. This is for certain.

All of this is good however the final say as to what is true and how to evaluate any information from any source must be by the Holy Spirit in one’s heart. God must be the final authority of what is real.

The church provides a valuable service by teaching of God but we don’t believe Jesus is God because the church tells us Jesus is God, we believe Jesus is God because the Holy Spirit shows us that Jesus is God. The church has its place in making that information available that Jesus is God but we believe Jesus is God because of the Holy Ghost.

Churches teach valuable things but nobody should ever just agree with what is being taught because it is being taught by a church. Everything must be evaluated through the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the final say.

Up to here we have no disagreement.

People disagreeing about what the Holy Ghost says it totally common place. This is totaly okay. As an individual you know what the Holy Spirit says and you follow it. Others that disagree may also be right and this is okay as they are working with different sets of information. All is well.

In certain circumstances I agree with this, in others I do not.
For instance, Ihave had conversations with Lutherens about “the Real presence” and “justification” etc. Once we get past the preliminaries I find that we are saying nearly the same thing but with slight differences in emphasis or terminology.
In this case I can accept that the inspriration of each is just nuanced by our personal experience and journeys.

Other people have, “spirit led” doctrines that are so diametrically opposed to my beliefs that we cannot conceive they are from the same source. We both must conclude that the other is horribly misguided in our “spirit guided” understanding.
In this case there can is no way to say that both “spirit guided” understandings are correct for the views oppose each other. (Christ is or is not actually present in the Eucharist for instance) The Holy Spirit cannot and does not tell different people opposing things. It flies in the Face of Christian Unity, being One with God.

The Church certainly has authority on earth and it is the unity of Christians, however this Church is not Catholic church. The true Church of authority is the Body of Christ, it is the Kingdom of God. Christ is King of this Kingdom or Church and we all must submit to its Authority. Members of this true Body or Church come from all denominations including Catholics. It is made up of the people who obey God and love.

The Catholic church has its place and purpose. It like all the other denominations is to point to this Kingdom of God and help show all people to serve Jesus in each other.

I have purposely steered away from naming any Church since I don’t want to turn this thread into a rehash of old arguments. But, of couse, I believe the Catholic Church is that Church with Christ’s Authority.
For the sake of our discussion here suffice it to say that, regardless of the name of the Church, without the ability to excersize the authority as laid out in Mt 18, No Church can effectively defend itself, or the faithful, against heresy. Those who think that it is just fine to be split all over the map are deluding themselves and only making it easier for people to become distracted by the differences instead of consentrating on the unity in God’s Love that you are promoting here in your thread.

Peace
James

 

[Seeker100]

Up to here we have no disagreement.

In certain circumstances I agree with this, in others I do not.
For instance, Ihave had conversations with Lutherens about “the Real presence” and “justification” etc. Once we get past the preliminaries I find that we are saying nearly the same thing but with slight differences in emphasis or terminology.
In this case I can accept that the inspriration of each is just nuanced by our personal experience and journeys.

Other people have, “spirit led” doctrines that are so diametrically opposed to my beliefs that we cannot conceive they are from the same source. We both must conclude that the other is horribly misguided in our “spirit guided” understanding.
In this case there can is no way to say that both “spirit guided” understandings are correct for the views oppose each other. (Christ is or is not actually present in the Eucharist for instance) The Holy Spirit cannot and does not tell different people opposing things. It flies in the Face of Christian Unity, being One with God.

I have purposely steered away from naming any Church since I don’t want to turn this thread into a rehash of old arguments. But, of couse, I believe the Catholic Church is that Church with Christ’s Authority.
For the sake of our discussion here suffice it to say that, regardless of the name of the Church, without the ability to excersize the authority as laid out in Mt 18, No Church can effectively defend itself, or the faithful, against heresy. Those who think that it is just fine to be split all over the map are deluding themselves and only making it easier for people to become distracted by the differences instead of consentrating on the unity in God’s Love that you are promoting here in your thread.

Peace
James

You are correct I too find some ideas and doctines, which people hold to be from the Holy Spirit in various denominations to be completely false. This is not an issue with me. God tells me what is false, and I thus follow God that certain teachings like these, are false, even if the supporters of these ideas say they are from the bible or the Holy Spirit.

Unity in Christ is not achieved by being all the same. If we were all the same race would that make us united? If we all drove the same colour of car, would that make us united? If we only had one country, would that make us united?

None of these things would make us united.

Becoming just one denomination would not make us united either. Love is what truly unites people in Christ, as Christ is Love. When we walk in love we can all be from different countries, different races, different colours of cars, different languages and different religious views, but still love and care for each other and thus, be united in the Spirit.

Having many denominations is a very very good thing for the Kingdom of God. It prevents the concentration of power in the hands of a few. This reduces drastically the corruption that comes with too much power. With many denominations it is easier for demoncracies to exist as the religious institutions being reduced in power, are not as great a threat to demoncracy. All denominations have their strengths and weaknesses. By having variety, each is able to bring forth ligitamate aspects of religous thought and worship that could not be expressed if there was only one denomination.

It is good that there are many denominations. It is not a concern. Whatever group we are in, we have the Lord if we obey love Him, and He is in those around us in need. By serving those, we each find our path.

 

[JRKH]

You are correct I too find some ideas and doctines, which people hold to be from the Holy Spirit in various denominations to be completely false. This is not an issue with me. God tells me what is false, and I thus follow God that certain teachings like these, are false, even if the supporters of these ideas say they are from the bible or the Holy Spirit.

Unity in Christ is not achieved by being all the same. If we were all the same race would that make us united? If we all drove the same colour of car, would that make us united? If we only had one country, would that make us united?

None of these things would make us united.

Of course none of these things would make us united in the way Christ wishes for us to be united. Unity comes from shared beliefs.

Becoming just one denomination would not make us united either. Love is what truly unites people in Christ, as Christ is Love. When we walk in love we can all be from different countries, different races, different colours of cars, different languages and different religious views, but still love and care for each other and thus, be united in the Spirit.

Precisely. So let me ask if you feel that those people with whom you disagree on doctrinal issues - believing them to be, " completely false", are serving God in Love by holding such false doctrines? Do you feel that you are serving them in Love by not correcting them? Are you serving God by not having an, “issue” with such false teachings?

Having many denominations is a very very good thing for the Kingdom of God. It prevents the concentration of power in the hands of a few. This reduces drastically the corruption that comes with too much power. With many denominations it is easier for demoncracies to exist as the religious institutions being reduced in power, are not as great a threat to demoncracy. All denominations have their strengths and weaknesses. By having variety, each is able to bring forth ligitamate aspects of religous thought and worship that could not be expressed if there was only one denomination.

It is good that there are many denominations. It is not a concern. Whatever group we are in, we have the Lord if we obey love Him, and He is in those around us in need. By serving those, we each find our path.

Yet Love, if truly practiced in the Christian community as this thread espouses, removes the threat of “power” because such positions of authority would not be positions of “Power” but of service and responsibility. Power is not the issue so much as “Lack of Love”. Evil can exist and cause suffering at any level.

You also say that different denomintations, “bring forth ligitamate aspects of religous thought and worship that could not be expressed if there was only one denomination.” I would suggest that, if you look at the various forms of True, loving Doctrines, and worship, you will find each represented within the Catholic Church. So even your statement above that, “Unity in Christ is not achieved by being all the same”, is off the mark for the Catholic Church is certainly NOT, “All the same”. What it is, is Doctrinally unified, Under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Peace
James

 

[Seeker100]

Of course none of these things would make us united in the way Christ wishes for us to be united. Unity comes from shared beliefs.

Precisely. So let me ask if you feel that those people with whom you disagree on doctrinal issues - believing them to be, " completely false", are serving God in Love by holding such false doctrines? Do you feel that you are serving them in Love by not correcting them? Are you serving God by not having an, “issue” with such false teachings?

Yet Love, if truly practiced in the Christian community as this thread espouses, removes the threat of “power” because such positions of authority would not be positions of “Power” but of service and responsibility. Power is not the issue so much as “Lack of Love”. Evil can exist and cause suffering at any level.

You also say that different denomintations, “bring forth ligitamate aspects of religous thought and worship that could not be expressed if there was only one denomination.” I would suggest that, if you look at the various forms of True, loving Doctrines, and worship, you will find each represented within the Catholic Church. So even your statement above that, “Unity in Christ is not achieved by being all the same”, is off the mark for the Catholic Church is certainly NOT, “All the same”. What it is, is Doctrinally unified, Under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Peace
James

Is God united? Of course He is. The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are united as One. Is the body of Christ united? Of course it is. It cannot be split any more than God can be split. The body of Christ are those that work for God thus there is always unity in Christ as it is Christ working in them.

People as I mentioned before can be from different nations but still be in the body of Christ. People as well can come from different denominations but still be in the body of Christ.

If a German man came up to you and said you must be German so that we can be united in Christ, would you not find that silly? You would say we are united in Christ when we do God’s will. It does not matter that we are of different nations of the world.

The same for denomination. It is silly to try and be one denomination as it has nothing to do with unity of Christ.

In this world there is actually only two religions. One religion is to serve God (Love) the other religion is to serve something that is not Love.

If a person is serving Love it does matter where they fit in as they are doing the will of God now and God is workig through them. It is not they that work but the Lord.

Certain doctrines that I don’t like are the ones that say that man can still sin and God says it is okay because of the blood of Jesus etc. To me these sort of doctrines are not of God and thus they have nothing to do with the body of Christ. Of course people who will fully sin in their lives are not part of the body of Christ but it would of course be wonderful if they repented and did the will of the Lord.

Different denominations have their strengths and weaknesses. The Catholic church is very authoritarian. This was very necessary in preserving Christianity in the early days against ideas that were against Christianity, such as the gnostics. The Catholic church however is very weak when it comes to controlling internal corruption. The authoritarian nature of it makes it ideal for base men to gain influence and then control the church and then say God says this or that to control people. Thus the Catholic format has strengths but it also has weaknesses.

I am a Quaker. We have no ministers and no sermons. The very word church is a bad word. Instead of church we use the word meeting. We say are you going to meeting? How was meeting etc.? The Quaker set up is hypervigulant against any one person gaining control of the religious views of the group. The Quaker set up is excellent against controlling authoritarian corruption. The Quaker set up however has a weakness. The Quaker set up would never have been able to hold the true gospel in the early days of Christianity against the gnostics. Thus the Quaker set up has advantages and it has disadvantages.

It is very good that both the Catholic church and the Quaker meeting houses exist as well as all of the other groups with their own unique ways. These denominational differences are superficial as the main thing is putting Love first. These denominational differences however help promote the Kingdom of God in different situations.

Different ideas on communion, baptism, church structure etc are all superficial. Putting Love first is the only thing that matters.

The aim for all is the same, it is bringing love to the earth. It is through this that we all see Jesus in everyone we meet.

 

[JRKH]

Is God united? Of course He is. The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are united as One. Is the body of Christ united? Of course it is. It cannot be split any more than God can be split. The body of Christ are those that work for God thus there is always unity in Christ as it is Christ working in them.

People as I mentioned before can be from different nations but still be in the body of Christ. People as well can come from different denominations but still be in the body of Christ.

Agreed

If a German man came up to you and said you must be German so that we can be united in Christ, would you not find that silly? You would say we are united in Christ when we do God’s will. It does not matter that we are of different nations of the world.

This is apples and oranges.

The same for denomination. It is silly to try and be one denomination as it has nothing to do with unity of Christ.

In this it is clear that we use the term, “denomination” differently.

In this world there is actually only two religions. One religion is to serve God (Love) the other religion is to serve something that is not Love.
Certain doctrines that I don’t like are the ones that say that man can still sin and God says it is okay because of the blood of Jesus etc. To me these sort of doctrines are not of God and thus they have nothing to do with the body of Christ. Of course people who will fully sin in their lives are not part of the body of Christ but it would of course be wonderful if they repented and did the will of the Lord.

And yet the people you refer to above, who think they can sin and are still saved by the Blood of Christ, DO feel that they are serving God. They believe this because they believe that, “The Holy Spirit”, Through the bible, and supported by their ministers tell them so. Yet from our perspective, we see them as following a false and dangerous Gospel that could very well result in their condemnation.

If a person is serving Love it does matter where they fit in as they are doing the will of God now and God is workig through them. It is not they that work but the Lord.

Agreed

Different denominations have their strengths and weaknesses. The Catholic church is very authoritarian. This was very necessary in preserving Christianity in the early days against ideas that were against Christianity, such as the gnostics. The Catholic church however is very weak when it comes to controlling internal corruption. The authoritarian nature of it makes it ideal for base men to gain influence and then control the church and then say God says this or that to control people. Thus the Catholic format has strengths but it also has weaknesses.

I would not deny that the Church has had problems with abuse of power. But what makes you think that the time when authority is necessary is past?? Christians are under greater attack today than at any time in the past thousand years - And much of that attack is coming from within the various christian communities.
The very lack of a unifying authority is permitting otherwise good people to be led down false paths, such as approving of homosexual behavior and allowing abortion as an acceptable personal choice. Not only are some being mislead by such things - being approved by their church leaders, others are losing their faith all together because they cannot accept such changes.
No - Abuse of authority is not the culprit today but rather the fear and rejection of lawful authority. Rejection of such lawful and unity authority has resulted, in more abuse and misuse of the Gospel than any abuse within the Church has. REjection of authority has resulted not in a better “church” structure" but a cacaphony of “Spirit Filled, Bible Based” Rhetoric where God’s teaching of Love, Humility and Service is lost in Anarchy.

I am a Quaker. We have no ministers and no sermons. The very word church is a bad word. Instead of church we use the word meeting. We say are you going to meeting? How was meeting etc.? The Quaker set up is hypervigulant against any one person gaining control of the religious views of the group. The Quaker set up is excellent against controlling authoritarian corruption. The Quaker set up however has a weakness. The Quaker set up would never have been able to hold the true gospel in the early days of Christianity against the gnostics. Thus the Quaker set up has advantages and it has disadvantages.

And thus the Quaker system will again be unable to hold the Gospel against the secular corruption and attacks in the future.

(Cont)

 

[JRKH]

(Cont)

It is very good that both the Catholic church and the Quaker meeting houses exist as well as all of the other groups with their own unique ways. These denominational differences are superficial as the main thing is putting Love first. These denominational differences however help promote the Kingdom of God in different situations.

I will agree, not that there are different denominations, but that there are different spiritualities in Christ’s Body. Such diversity is clearly shown in the wide numbers of different religious orders, rites, community and social groups within the Catholic Church.
While I will accept that some people are drawn to Christ through a non-catholic community who might not otherwise be, in the end I think that the divisions do more harm than good.

Different ideas on communion, baptism, church structure etc are all superficial. Putting Love first is the only thing that matters.

Church structure can certainly Change. Differences on our understanding of Baptism are largely a matter of hashing out terminology etc. But when it comes to communion, The Holy Eucharist, I’m sorry but there you are wrong. The Bible, as well has early church history, That same Church history you accept as authoritative and necessary to protect the Gospel from heresies, clearly supports the belief in the real presence.
The Church, like Christ himself John 6 , has let people walk away rather than deny or water down this teaching.

The aim for all is the same, it is bringing love to the earth. It is through this that we all see Jesus in everyone we meet.

Yes we must judge all things against the Law of Love. This is as Christ would wish.
But one need also ask if, in this Law of Love, we are serving God by our divisions.

Seeker, I see in you a person who is very catholic in many ways. Your Love of God is evident and you have internalized the Law of Love beautifully. This shows through in every post you put up. It seems that the only thing that you and I have a difference of opinion on is authority. You fear it and I accept it.
You fear it because you have seen abuses in The Church in the past and it seems you do not trust Our Lord to protect His bride from such abuses in the long run.
I accept it because Christ clearly gave His Church authority and expects us to follow that authority even if some in authority are sinful.
The term “Church” is used only twice in the Gospels. Both times by Jesus and both times in reference to granting authority to “Bind and Loose…whatever”. IN Mt 18 Jesus goes so far as to say that anyone who does not listen to “The Church” should be shunned, kicked out until they repent. It is ONLY by this authority that we have the Gospels held intact today. Those, like the gnostics you mention above, were kicked out for failing to listen to The Authoritative Church.
As far as our duty to follow the Church even during a corrupt period, I would point to Matthew 23:2-3. Here Jesus tells his the crowds, including his disciples, to obey the teaching of the pharasees because the “sit on the seat of Moses”. Jesus said this right at the beginning of a chapter in which he lambasts the leaders for their corruption.
So - Did Jesus tell the people to rebel against the authority placed over them by God? No he did not. He told them to obey teachings but not to, “do as they do”. In short he is telling us that, teachings will come from God through sinful men.

Then Jesus told the Apostles this:
Matthew 28: 18-20
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
This they did and they, using the authority given them by Christ, spread and built The Church with that authority you praise in the early days. They and their successors built and protected that Church under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit from then until now.

Yes other Christian communities hold some of the Truth and God uses them to build His church. I believe the Quaker Spirituality hold a very dear place in Christ’s Church. But so long as Christian communities refuse to come together and join hands in common belief and in common humility to the authority the Christ Granted His Church, I’m afraid that the Body of Christ will continue to suffer from a painful wound.

Peace
James

 

[Seeker100]

(Cont)

I will agree, not that there are different denominations, but that there are different spiritualities in Christ’s Body. Such diversity is clearly shown in the wide numbers of different religious orders, rites, community and social groups within the Catholic Church.
While I will accept that some people are drawn to Christ through a non-catholic community who might not otherwise be, in the end I think that the divisions do more harm than good.

Church structure can certainly Change. Differences on our understanding of Baptism are largely a matter of hashing out terminology etc. But when it comes to communion, The Holy Eucharist, I’m sorry but there you are wrong. The Bible, as well has early church history, That same Church history you accept as authoritative and necessary to protect the Gospel from heresies, clearly supports the belief in the real presence.
The Church, like Christ himself John 6 , has let people walk away rather than deny or water down this teaching.

Yes we must judge all things against the Law of Love. This is as Christ would wish.
But one need also ask if, in this Law of Love, we are serving God by our divisions.

Seeker, I see in you a person who is very catholic in many ways. Your Love of God is evident and you have internalized the Law of Love beautifully. This shows through in every post you put up. It seems that the only thing that you and I have a difference of opinion on is authority. You fear it and I accept it.
You fear it because you have seen abuses in The Church in the past and it seems you do not trust Our Lord to protect His bride from such abuses in the long run.
I accept it because Christ clearly gave His Church authority and expects us to follow that authority even if some in authority are sinful.
The term “Church” is used only twice in the Gospels. Both times by Jesus and both times in reference to granting authority to “Bind and Loose…whatever”. IN Mt 18 Jesus goes so far as to say that anyone who does not listen to “The Church” should be shunned, kicked out until they repent. It is ONLY by this authority that we have the Gospels held intact today. Those, like the gnostics you mention above, were kicked out for failing to listen to The Authoritative Church.
As far as our duty to follow the Church even during a corrupt period, I would point to Matthew 23:2-3. Here Jesus tells his the crowds, including his disciples, to obey the teaching of the pharasees because the “sit on the seat of Moses”. Jesus said this right at the beginning of a chapter in which he lambasts the leaders for their corruption.
So - Did Jesus tell the people to rebel against the authority placed over them by God? No he did not. He told them to obey teachings but not to, “do as they do”. In short he is telling us that, teachings will come from God through sinful men.

Then Jesus told the Apostles this:
Matthew 28: 18-20
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
This they did and they, using the authority given them by Christ, spread and built The Church with that authority you praise in the early days. They and their successors built and protected that Church under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit from then until now.

Yes other Christian communities hold some of the Truth and God uses them to build His church. I believe the Quaker Spirituality hold a very dear place in Christ’s Church. But so long as Christian communities refuse to come together and join hands in common belief and in common humility to the authority the Christ Granted His Church, I’m afraid that the Body of Christ will continue to suffer from a painful wound.

Peace
James

James, what you see as a wound, I see as a victory in Christ. Being Protestant I see the Protestant denominations as being formed by God Himself to spread His Kingdom, so thus I do not see any wound to God and I certainly do not feel wounded by it myself.

Denominational splits, sacrament understanding etc are of no issue to me. I am glad that we have lots of different denominations and I hope that it will always be that way. My concern is that large numbers of people of Protestant, Catholic or any group for that matter seem to go through life and have no idea of being born again or walking in the Spirit. The masses seem to have no clue of serving Jesus in everyone they meet. Mother Teresa wrote of serving Jesus in the people she met but her books are an exception. Most Christian books don’t even mention it and many many Christians don’t seem to have the slightest idea of serving Jesus in others. The churches (and meeting houses and halls) both Protestant and Catholic seem so dead. The priests and ministers seem to have no understanding of serving Jesus in others and thus do very little to advance the Kingdom of God. The true Christianity seems so unknown.

Denominational differences are of no consequence, the mass absence however in the spiritual understanding of serving Jesus is a serious concern.

 

[mark_a]

Yes I am sure that one will see many “hidden” Christians that lead their unassuming lives for love. They never stood out in the public eye as moral superstars however God sees the commited heart and sees who is real.

Nice post.

 

[mark_a]

I am glad that we have lots of different denominations and I hope that it will always be that way.

Are you glad we have lots of different truths too?

 

[Seeker100]

Are you glad we have lots of different truths too?

There is one Truth and that is Love. The format of the religious service on Sunday is really not important as long as the individual is leading his life for the love and care of others.

 

[JRKH]

James, what you see as a wound, I see as a victory in Christ. Being Protestant I see the Protestant denominations as being formed by God Himself to spread His Kingdom, so thus I do not see any wound to God and I certainly do not feel wounded by it myself.

Sure you would not feel the wound since, in all liklihood, you were born with that wound. By that I mean that you did not wound Christ by splitting from His Church and creating a denomination, rather you joined an already split denomination and thus were “born”, as it were, already wounded.

Denominational splits, sacrament understanding etc are of no issue to me. I am glad that we have lots of different denominations and I hope that it will always be that way.

Well - Since denominational splits (and their attendant doctrinal differences) are of no issue to you then it follows that it is no issue to you that another person fully believes that they can sin at will and still be saved by the doctrine of OSAS.
Plus since denominational splits are of no consequence you would have no grounds upon which to oppose such a errant doctrine since their “Spirit Led” interpretation of Scripture is just as valid as your own
You wish a larger concentration on Love, and acting on that Love, as our core value. A laudable goal and I wholly support it. But by declaring denominational splits, and their inherent doctrinal differences, to be of no issue, you seem fully willing to accept a valid a denomination that downplays Love in exchange for “health and wealth”, or turning Love into a money making operation, (“Love” offerings)
I don’t write these things to pick a fight. I genuinely admire you seeker, and think you have a really good head on your shoulders but I do think you miss the boat on the authority issue.

My concern is that large numbers of people of Protestant, Catholic or any group for that matter seem to go through life and have no idea of being born again or walking in the Spirit. The masses seem to have no clue of serving Jesus in everyone they meet. Mother Teresa wrote of serving Jesus in the people she met but her books are an exception. Most Christian books don’t even mention it and many many Christians don’t seem to have the slightest idea of serving Jesus in others.

Jesus Himself told us that the road is narrow and that few find it. It is unfortunate that it must be further obscured by splits and doctrinal differences

The churches (and meeting houses and halls) both Protestant and Catholic seem so dead. The priests and ministers seem to have no understanding of serving Jesus in others and thus do very little to advance the Kingdom of God. The true Christianity seems so unknown.

Well I don’t have enough experience to comment on a statement this broad. I can only say that from my experience, most priests, deacons, and other ministers I have known labor very hard to serve Christ in the flocks entrusted to them. They are kind, thoughtful and loving people, though much overworked most of the time.
Yes indeed there is so much more that can be done, and many who just wlk through life with blinders on. It is sad but inevitable.

Denominational differences are of no consequence, the mass absence however in the spiritual understanding of serving Jesus is a serious concern.

You seem to write so well and convey your points so well, perhaps you should put these things down in a book. I know I would buy a copy.

Peace
James

 

[Seeker100]

Sure you would not feel the wound since, in all liklihood, you were born with that wound. By that I mean that you did not wound Christ by splitting from His Church and creating a denomination, rather you joined an already split denomination and thus were “born”, as it were, already wounded.

Well - Since denominational splits (and their attendant doctrinal differences) are of no issue to you then it follows that it is no issue to you that another person fully believes that they can sin at will and still be saved by the doctrine of OSAS.
Plus since denominational splits are of no consequence you would have no grounds upon which to oppose such a errant doctrine since their “Spirit Led” interpretation of Scripture is just as valid as your own
You wish a larger concentration on Love, and acting on that Love, as our core value. A laudable goal and I wholly support it. But by declaring denominational splits, and their inherent doctrinal differences, to be of no issue, you seem fully willing to accept a valid a denomination that downplays Love in exchange for “health and wealth”, or turning Love into a money making operation, (“Love” offerings)
I don’t write these things to pick a fight. I genuinely admire you seeker, and think you have a really good head on your shoulders but I do think you miss the boat on the authority issue.

Jesus Himself told us that the road is narrow and that few find it. It is unfortunate that it must be further obscured by splits and doctrinal differences

Well I don’t have enough experience to comment on a statement this broad. I can only say that from my experience, most priests, deacons, and other ministers I have known labor very hard to serve Christ in the flocks entrusted to them. They are kind, thoughtful and loving people, though much overworked most of the time.
Yes indeed there is so much more that can be done, and many who just wlk through life with blinders on. It is sad but inevitable.

You seem to write so well and convey your points so well, perhaps you should put these things down in a book. I know I would buy a copy.

Peace
James

You are correct, there are some doctrines that I find totally disgusting. Two of these doctrines are OSAS and Calvanism. It is still however very beneficial for Christianity, to have many denominations. With many denominations the Truth can be publically expressed in many ways. These various ways, strengthen the Christian message of Love.

For example, some denominations have infant water baptism, others have adult water baptism and still others have no water baptism at all. Each denomination does it the way they do as they are making a specific public statement, in glorifying Love. If there was only one denomination this expression of Love would be greatly limited. With many denominations however the expression of Love is much more complete, even when the ways of each are contradictory. Thus, the glorification of God is much better expressed through the public worship of many denominations.

Thanks for the complement on the way that I write. I am very mission oriented in my writings. I enjoy your posts very much.

 

[JRKH]

You are correct, there are some doctrines that I find totally disgusting. Two of these doctrines are OSAS and Calvanism. It is still however very beneficial for Christianity, to have many denominations. With many denominations the Truth can be publically expressed in many ways. These various ways, strengthen the Christian message of Love.

For example, some denominations have infant water baptism, others have adult water baptism and still others have no water baptism at all. Each denomination does it the way they do as they are making a specific public statement, in glorifying Love. If there was only one denomination this expression of Love would be greatly limited. With many denominations however the expression of Love is much more complete, even when the ways of each are contradictory. Thus, the glorification of God is much better expressed through the public worship of many denominations.

Yes the Christian message can be conveyed in many ways by having different spiritualities, or denominations in your view, but unlike different spritualites, all under one roof as in the Catholic Church, different denominations, under different roofs, can also spread, without authoritative check, heresies and untruths disquised as truth, wrapped in pulpit rhetoric.

You see you and I both glory in diversity of expression, and thankfully so does the Catholic Church. But I see a need, even in that diversity, for an overarching authority to settle doctrinal questions and keep Christ’s teachings pure and the faithful to the Good news passed down from Christ through His Church. This is how we prevent such false teachings as you mention above that disturb you, while at the same time embracing healthy diversity.

Thanks for the complement on the way that I write. I am very mission oriented in my writings. I enjoy your posts very much.

No problem. The boards are blessed to have you here. And for myself, I enjoy your posts and your insights. They help me a lot.

Peace
James

 

[mfj]

I totally agree with Seeker on this!
Yet, I have wondered why Gd in His Wisdom let the church split. He could have stepped in anytime and set the record straight.
The Holy Spirit could move any one into a state of truth.

One of my theories;
The Accuser went before the Lord as in the book of Job. There he challenged Gd saying “you have held the church and built a fence around it. Only let me divide it and they will fail. You brought down the tower of Babel. Let me confuse their language so they won’t understand each other.” Gd allowed it but what Satan meant for evil, He meant for good.

I have other ludicrous theories. I’ll share some day.

Mean while there can be only ONE, ONE TRUTH, ONE LIFE, ONE WAY

 

[DL82]

When Our Lord was asked the essence of man’s relationship with God (the most important commandment, the heart of the covenant relationship) He replied with 2 commandments:

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind and soul and strength.
And a second is like to it:
You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

The ‘likeness’ of these two works on so many levels, but no matter how equal or alike they may be, you can never reduce the one to the other. Nobody can summarise the faith more succinctly than the Word of God, but even He has to give two commands.

There are those at the conservative traditionalist extreme of the Church who want to reduce everything to correct worship. They reason that if they offer prayer and works of penance in the right way to God, this increases God’s hold over them, and thus He will be able to use them for good, perhaps more in the next life than in this, thus true love of neighbour is nothing more than perfect worship. While this kind of worship is important, it doesn’t increase God’s power, which is always perfect. Work we must.

On the other hand, there are those at the liberal extreme or in some protestant churches, who want to say that the way we worship God is only by serving our neighbour, that any time we spend participating in liturgy or growing through contemplation is time wasted unless it builds directly on the material welfare of our neighbour. While social justice is a key concern of every true Christian, we can’t give what we haven’t received. We must retain our relationship with God in the Truth of true worship. Pray we must.

Pope Benedict addresses just this balance in his recent encyclical Caritas in Veritate vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html

It’s not an either-or of love of true worship in accordance with true doctrine or social outreach in the mess of the world as it truly is. “It is good that you should take hold of the one, without letting go of the other; for the one who fears God shall succeed with both.” (Ecclesiastes 7:18)

 

[mark_a]

There is one Truth and that is Love. The format of the religious service on Sunday is really not important as long as the individual is leading his life for the love and care of others.

Is it ok to abort a Down’s Syndrome child as long as it’s done for love?

 

[soma]

Love burns away ignorance and illuminates the mind with unity and the presence of a pure consciousness that gives rise to a mind that is capable of seeing a totally new dimension. On the mountain peak of the soul one can see a new horizon in the clear, upper, rarefied air of God’s pure consciousness where one is able to guide the mind’s activities in a new direction that one has never before known. In this way God gives the spiritual mind new instincts to prepare it to move in a spiritual consciousness.

Is it ok to abort a Down’s Syndrome child as long as it’s done for love?

Is is ok for a soldier to kill someone he doesn’t know as long as it is done for the love of his country?

We must discern for ourselves our spiritual direction. There is no need to judge others.

 

[Seeker100]

Yes the Christian message can be conveyed in many ways by having different spiritualities, or denominations in your view, but unlike different spritualites, all under one roof as in the Catholic Church, different denominations, under different roofs, can also spread, without authoritative check, heresies and untruths disquised as truth, wrapped in pulpit rhetoric.

You see you and I both glory in diversity of expression, and thankfully so does the Catholic Church. But I see a need, even in that diversity, for an overarching authority to settle doctrinal questions and keep Christ’s teachings pure and the faithful to the Good news passed down from Christ through His Church. This is how we prevent such false teachings as you mention above that disturb you, while at the same time embracing healthy diversity.

No problem. The boards are blessed to have you here. And for myself, I enjoy your posts and your insights. They help me a lot.

Peace
James

You say there is a need for an overeaching authority to settle doctrinal questions. There is a problem with that. Authority is gained in two ways. One way, people of their own free will submit to the authority as they respect it and want it. The other way the authority is enfored is by physical force on those that do not want it. The laws of all countries are like this. Like wise if the church was to be an authority on doctine it we would have to go back to what it was like before the protestant reformation (and we sure don’t want to do that).

Christianity shines forth much brighter today in our present time than it did when the Catholic Church ruled with an iron fist.

All is well with the many denominations. God knows who are His own. His sheep hear His voice.

 

[Seeker100]

I totally agree with Seeker on this!
Yet, I have wondered why Gd in His Wisdom let the church split. He could have stepped in anytime and set the record straight.
The Holy Spirit could move any one into a state of truth.

One of my theories;
The Accuser went before the Lord as in the book of Job. There he challenged Gd saying “you have held the church and built a fence around it. Only let me divide it and they will fail. You brought down the tower of Babel. Let me confuse their language so they won’t understand each other.” Gd allowed it but what Satan meant for evil, He meant for good.

I have other ludicrous theories. I’ll share some day.

Mean while there can be only ONE, ONE TRUTH, ONE LIFE, ONE WAY

Cool!