The USCCB and Schism

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Schism is when one person refuses to submit to the Pope, the Extraordinary Magisterium, or the Ordinary Magisterium. The USCCB says there is no prescribed position during the Our Father other then that the people stand up. If one, with full knowledge that there is no prescribed position during the Our Father, holds hands or puts their hands in the Orans position, does that make that person a schismatic?
 
Inquiringperson said:
Schism is when one person refuses to submit to the Pope, the Extraordinary Magisterium, or the Ordinary Magisterium. The USCCB says there is no prescribed position during the Our Father other then that the people stand up. If one, with full knowledge that there is no prescribed position during the Our Father, holds hands or puts their hands in the Orans position, does that make that person a schismatic?
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Code of Canon Law:
Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.
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Saying that there is no prescribed position, by the USCCB, other than that the people stand for the Pater Noster does not disqualify/condemn the Orans position or the holding of hands. It would take a command by one’s own Bishop NOT to hold hands or take the Orans position to make it disobedience to one’s own Bishop. Disobedience is a singular occurrence of failure to bend one’s will to that of his superior. Schism is a whole-scale refusal of submission to the highest earthly authority, etc.

Disobedience and schism are not equivalent. Disobedience can be mortally sinful, as can schism, but schism, by can. 1364 strikes one from the Mystical Body:
Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in ⇒ can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.
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Taking the Orans position or holding hands are neither schism in this case, because they do not manifest a refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or refusal of communion with the members subject to him.

– Nicole
 
As others have said, it is not a schismatic act. It’s not even clear disobedience. I personally still don’t like and don’t do it.
 
Inquiringperson said:
Schism is when one person refuses to submit to the Pope, the Extraordinary Magisterium, or the Ordinary Magisterium. The USCCB says there is no prescribed position during the Our Father other then that the people stand up. If one, with full knowledge that there is no prescribed position during the Our Father, holds hands or puts their hands in the Orans position, does that make that person a schismatic?
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Nothing of the sort! The orans position is entirely appropriate since we are in fact, in prayer. Hand holding has never been authorized by the Bishops, and is discouraged, since our prayer is between each of us and the Lord, and not between each of us and our neighbor. All of the physical movement and attention directed toward hand-holding takes our focus off of the communication with our heavenly Father. It emphasizes the horizontal element rather than the vertical element of our prayer.

I see hand-holding as a schlocky 1960s corruption of the mass.
 
po18guy said:
The orans position is entirely appropriate since we are in fact, in prayer.
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Though originally a general gesture for prayer, for a long time the orans position has been primarily associated with the priest as he prays on behalf of the people. For a layperson to use the position can suggest to others a sort of silly, prideful imitation of the priest’s unique role in the liturgy or, worse, an attempt to concelebrate the Eucharist with him. This is may not be what many people are thinking when they choose to adopt the orans position in mass, but I personally dislike it because of its possible clerical connotations.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
Though originally a general gesture for prayer, for a long time the orans position has been primarily associated with the priest as he prays on behalf of the people. For a layperson to use the position can suggest to others a sort of silly, prideful imitation of the priest’s unique role in the liturgy or, worse, an attempt to concelebrate the Eucharist with him. This is may not be what many people are thinking when they choose to adopt the orans position in mass, but I personally dislike it because of its possible clerical connotations.
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My bad! I confused the orans position with the standard “praying hands” posture. As to the subject at hand, I found this:
ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm

and this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=882869&postcount=2

I hereby stand corrected.:o Thank you for pointing this out.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
Though originally a general gesture for prayer, for a long time the orans position has been primarily associated with the priest as he prays on behalf of the people. For a layperson to use the position can suggest to others a sort of silly, prideful imitation of the priest’s unique role in the liturgy or, worse, an attempt to concelebrate the Eucharist with him. This is may not be what many people are thinking when they choose to adopt the orans position in mass, but I personally dislike it because of its possible clerical connotations.
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A nun taught me, back in 1979 (I was 7 at the time); that we hold our hands open to God (orans) to signify that God both gives to us (here, she placed an imaginary item in my opened palm) and takes away, (here she very slowly and gently removed an imaginary item from my open palm). This was very significant as my cat had just died. She emphasized that to pray in this fashion shows God that we are open to and accept fully His will in all matters.

I still have trouble praying in this way. (God forgive me).

My point: try not to experience Mass by judging those around you. Thank God for the opportunity to overcome the adversity of whatever distraction is placed before you, and goodness … it’s not that hard to NOT hold the hand of the person next to you.
 
Inquiringperson said:
Schism is when one person refuses to submit to the Pope, the Extraordinary Magisterium, or the Ordinary Magisterium. The USCCB says there is no prescribed position during the Our Father other then that the people stand up.
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If there is no prescribed position, how can one refuse to hold a position that does not exist? This is as weird as trying to divide by zero. The answer is, no.

Orans, holding hands, praying hands, or hands by the side, there is no prescribed position.
 
Inquiringperson said:
Schism is when one person refuses to submit to the Pope, the Extraordinary Magisterium, or the Ordinary Magisterium. The USCCB says there is no prescribed position during the Our Father other then that the people stand up. If one, with full knowledge that there is no prescribed position during the Our Father, holds hands or puts their hands in the Orans position, does that make that person a schismatic?
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no it does not
schism is about disagreement on doctrine, not minor actions at Mass that are not part of the rubrics
 
I’m not sure what posture the OP wishes the faithful to assume during the Our Father, but , by the logic of the question, any posture would be schismatic, whether it is orans, holding hands, or folding hands.

Until someone in authority gives definitive directions on this, no posture is mandatory, nor is one explicitly forbidden.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
I was speaking in terms of the general practice in the Western Church during relatively recent centuries, not about art or the Early Church or the East.
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Icons are not merely “art”. You don’t depict someone doing something they shouldn’t be doing. There is no freedom of expression in iconography. Icons should always convey correct teaching, unlike Western art which is free form.

Do you think there is a difference between East and West when it comes to the orans? No lay person does the orans in our parishes. And the clergy do the orans in other prayers, not just the Our Father.
 
MusicMan said:
I’m not sure what posture the OP wishes the faithful to assume during the Our Father, but , by the logic of the question, any posture would be schismatic, whether it is orans, holding hands, or folding hands.

Until someone in authority gives definitive directions on this, no posture is mandatory, nor is one explicitly forbidden.
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I think its overboard to say not following the GIRM is schismatic.
 
The rubrics tell us what to do - not what NOT to do. Some would have us all think that since xyz is not prohibited we can do it. That, of course, is nonsense. No where do the rubrics say we cannot waive a dead chicken over our heads (to better express our understanding that life is mortal??), yet, I think it fair to say we cannot do that. We need to assume a respectful stance commensurate with the position indicated by the rubrics. I like neither the hand-holding nor the congregational orans position, but I would be hard pressed to say they are disrespectful, though they are - in this instance - contrived insertions by the groovy charismatics of the 70s and 80s.

Nonetheless, assuming the orans position or hand-holding certainly do not indicate any schism.
 
You’re absolutely right, and I think I’ve figure out where the disconnect is… time to start a thread!
 
Thanks guys. Ever since I joined the forums, I have become scruple sometimes. Has any Church officials condemn holding hands during the Pater Noster?
 
Inquiringperson said:
Thanks guys. Ever since I joined the forums, I have become scruple sometimes. Has any Church officials condemn holding hands during the Pater Noster?
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I have never read anything that would constitute a statement from the Magesterium condemning hand-holding, however some officials have given their opinion on the matter. And whatever you read on these forums is opinion. My opinion is I don’t like it, but I in no way speak for the Magesterium, which has not spoken on the matter at all. But some people post things from various Church officials, but they don’t really carry any true weight in the matter–there is nothing saying you can or can’t.

I have found that the best thing to do at Mass is to focus on the Mass and not on what others are doing. However, if someone takes my hand, even though I consider it a little rude, I do not refuse them. They don’t mean any harm and it won’t kill me to do something I don’t like, rather than run the risk of hurting someone’s feelings in the middle of Mass, of all places. It really is a small thing.
 
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