The use of the term "Protestant Sects" by Catholics

[Tommy999]

Thanks, Peter J and Kathleen Gee and everyone else who responded on this thread. I learned a lot from it.

 

[spedteacherita]

We agree on so much with Protestants that I believe unwise to finger point and argue over insignificant details causing division -

Merry Christmas to all !

Amen, Ken! I think what we all forget at times is that the one central belief we have is that Jesus became incarnate to suffer and die on the cross for all our sins and that we wait expectantly for His return as He has promised.

 

[PRmerger]

Amen, Ken! I think what we all forget at times is that the one central belief we have is that Jesus became incarnate to suffer and die on the cross for all our sins and that we wait expectantly for His return as He has promised.

There’s a bit more to our beliefs than that.

What we agree upon, with most Christian sects, is, I respectfully say, what my daughters learned in 1st grade religion class. We can agree that God made the world. God loves you. God loves me. God made me part of a family. God sent His Son Jesus. Jesus loves me. Jesus died for me. Jesus rose from the dead.

That’s 1st grade theology.

I think as adults we need to agree upon a bit more than what 1st graders learn in Catholic school.

 

[spedteacherita]

There’s a bit more to our beliefs than that.

What we agree upon, with most Christian sects, is, I respectfully say, what my daughters learned in 1st grade religion class. We can agree that God made the world. God loves you. God loves me. God made me part of a family. God sent His Son Jesus. Jesus loves me. Jesus died for me. Jesus rose from the dead.

That’s 1st grade theology.

I think as adults we need to agree upon a bit more than what 1st graders learn in Catholic school.

Of course there is more and it’s deeper but, in regards to salvation, that’s the basic message. We make salvation much more difficult than it is. As we walk in faith with Jesus we’re going to grow just as friendships grow. The more we learn -with the help of the Holy Spirit - the deeper our relationship grows with Him. His love and compassion emanates from us and we naturally produce the beautiful fruits of tge Spirit.

1st grade theology or not, salvation still is dependent on the fact that Christ came and redeemed us, is preparing a place for us, and will return to take us with Him to His heavenly kingdom.

 

[fhansen]

Background
I’ve always viewed both the Catholic Church and most protestant denominations as Christians, believers of equal standing in the eyes of God. Of course, there are individuals in both groups who are undoubtedly more serious about their faith than others, but I am speaking in general terms here.
Observation:
On threads such as forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=926902, there are Catholics who refer to "protestant sects’.

Question1:
What is meant by that and why is that term chosen instead of “denomination”, “faith tradition”, or “communion”, as I’ve also seen used by other Catholics on CAF?

To some Catholics, this distinction may be little to do about nothing and merely semantics, but not to me.

To me, the word ‘sect’ carries a negative connotation as if suggesting illegitimacy or heresy, as in the definition 1a listed below taken from the Merriam online dictionary.

Full Definition of SECT (per Merriam online dictionary – full definition section)
*1a : a dissenting or schismatic religious body; especially : one regarded as extreme or heretical
1b : a religious denomination *

When I think of a sect, I think of Jim Jones and his group that committed mass suicide in South America or the Branch Davidians under David Koresh, not Southern Baptists, Assembly of God, or Methodists, for example.

However, the word ‘Sect’ can also be defined as “a religious denomination”, which is how I would describe most protestant churches.

Question2:
If you use the term “Protestant Sect”, what meaning are you applying to it, the 1a or 1b definition above, or neither?

Why does it matter?
Your use of the term offers a window into how you view non-Catholic Christians.

For example, are protestants like me considered lesser Christians or perhaps heretics, or are we what the CCC describes as brothers in Christ who "the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection" in CCC 818?

I apologize if I am being overly sensitive or if this issue doesn’t apply to you. If that is the case, please disregard this whole thread and thank you for being my brother or sister in Christ.

If it does apply, I hope you will give it a little closer examination in the future to the terms you use when describing other Christians who may not belong to your faith tradition.

Your friend in Christ,
Tommy

The Catholic Church has the full truth regarding the gospel. There’s no egalitarianism in truth; only the truth will do. The Church refers to most Protestants as “separated brethren”, untied to the Church by faith in Christ but imperfectly so.

 

[Tommy999]

Of course there is more and it’s deeper but, in regards to salvation, that’s the basic message. We make salvation much more difficult than it is. As we walk in faith with Jesus we’re going to grow just as friendships grow. The more we learn -with the help of the Holy Spirit - the deeper our relationship grows with Him. His love and compassion emanates from us and we naturally produce the beautiful fruits of tge Spirit.

1st grade theology or not, salvation still is dependent on the fact that Christ came and redeemed us, is preparing a place for us, and will return to take us with Him to His heavenly kingdom.

I agree, spedteacherita (interesting name, by the way). I think there is more in common than not between Catholics and protestants, although there are some legitimate differences, also.

For example, most protestant denominations adhere to the beliefs stated in the Nicene Creed. Those beliefs are more than just a children’s story.

 

[Tommy999]

The Catholic Church has the full truth regarding the gospel. There’s no egalitarianism in truth; only the truth will do. The Church refers to most Protestants as “separated brethren”, untied to the Church by faith in Christ but imperfectly so.

Thanks, fhansen. I assume you meant ‘united’, right? Or was that a Freudian slip?

In all seriousness, as long as protestants and Catholics treat one another as siblings in Christ and with respect, the gap between us will narrow, I truly believe and hope.

I know I can honestly say that I have learned and continue to learn valuable insights in the Christian faith from Catholics on CAF and I appreciate it a lot.

 

[PRmerger]

For example, most protestant denominations adhere to the beliefs stated in the Nicene Creed. Those beliefs are more than just a children’s story.

No. Not a children’s story. But definitely a children’s* theology.*

My children learned that there is one God, and he created everything and Jesus is his son, and he died for our sins…

back in the first grade. Probably even earlier than that.

I am not dismissing the richness and beauty of these concepts, but I am saying that if we are going to say, “Hey! We just need to agree that God loves us and Jesus is his son and the rest is superfluous!” then we are going to be stuck in a childish understanding of the Godhead.

It’s like listening to Christian Contemporary Music. I like it. It’s catchy. But the words/meaning/message are also pretty lame. And I can’t listen to it for a prolonged period of time.

What is proclaimed, in an effort to be attractive to all Christians without anyone turning off the radio because they disagree with what the song says is a variation of just a few themes:

God’s glory is immense! (yes, of course). Jesus died for you and me (true). Jesus helps us up when we are down (amen).

Imagine how boring the CAFs would be if all we discussed was what was permitted to be sung on Christian radio.

 

[PRmerger]

Of course there is more and it’s deeper but, in regards to salvation, that’s the basic message. We make salvation much more difficult than it is. As we walk in faith with Jesus we’re going to grow just as friendships grow. The more we learn -with the help of the Holy Spirit - the deeper our relationship grows with Him. His love and compassion emanates from us and we naturally produce the beautiful fruits of tge Spirit.

1st grade theology or not, salvation still is dependent on the fact that Christ came and redeemed us, is preparing a place for us, and will return to take us with Him to His heavenly kingdom.

We are agreed. Very Catholic what you profess above!

 

[Randy_Carson]

The actual definition of “sect” would be:

“a subgroup of a religious, political or philosophical belief system, usually an offshoot of a larger religious group.”

Right. I was about to cite a definition, also. Catholicism is the larger group.

I can see how in the beginning, when Protestantism was new, the word “sect” might be appropriate.

Christianity was also considered a “sect” of Judaism in it’s early stage, before it gathered numbers and differentiated itself more from Judaism…thereby earning it’s own name.

But Protestantism has been around long enough by now to be called a church in its own right, not someone else’s sect.

Protestantism refers not to a single church but to a collection of many, many groups who travel largely in a pack, but don’t necessarily agree on who the Alpha male is. So, in effect, what we have is sects within a sect.

And unlike Catholicism, which did eventually become the larger group relative to Judaism, Protestantism has not become the larger group within Christianity. Even when viewed as a whole, Protestants remain the smaller group which has split off from the larger group, Catholicism.

So, “sect” is properly applied.

 

[Della]

I agree, spedteacherita (interesting name, by the way). I think there is more in common than not between Catholics and protestants, although there are some legitimate differences, also.

For example, most protestant denominations adhere to the beliefs stated in the Nicene Creed. Those beliefs are more than just a children’s story.

With all gentleness and charity, your denomination doesn’t believe in the Nicene Creed as understood by those who wrote it nor by the Church that professed it centuries before Protestantism arose. The Assemblies of God does not believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. It believes in an invisible church of all believers with no earthly head nor episcopal structure–that’s not what the NC says or means at all.

The differences between the Assemblies of God and the Catholic Church are more than cosmetic, the same with all other Protestant ecclesial bodies. The differences are profound and important. There are core issues that cannot be glossed over because our salvation depends on living the truth in Christ.

The fact that God extends his mercy to all who seeks him does not mean that people are free to believe whatever they wish without regard to the teachings of Christ’s Church. Those who know the teachings have an obligation to conform their beliefs to those of the Church and to be reconciled to her. That can be a difficult process, I know. And it may take time and prayer, but it’s still the truth of the matter.

 

[KathleenGee]

I would add that the counterpoint to ‘sect’ would be the experience of God in the transcendent.

Transcendence carries us beyond our group, our associations in Church, to experiencing the sacred of God Himself in all peoples and all things He created … good…

And to use or apply transcendence…of that which is sacred…to all.

Now…this is what I gain being Catholic and entering into the Sacred Liturgy of the Mass…where we live the world and its limitations, its time, space, differentiations, and obstacles…to go to the source of Life itself…

 

[Tommy999]

No. Not a children’s story. But definitely a children’s* theology.*

My children learned that there is one God, and he created everything and Jesus is his son, and he died for our sins…

back in the first grade. Probably even earlier than that.

I am not dismissing the richness and beauty of these concepts, but I am saying that if we are going to say, “Hey! We just need to agree that God loves us and Jesus is his son and the rest is superfluous!” then we are going to be stuck in a childish understanding of the Godhead.

It’s like listening to Christian Contemporary Music. I like it. It’s catchy. But the words/meaning/message are also pretty lame. And I can’t listen to it for a prolonged period of time.

What is proclaimed, in an effort to be attractive to all Christians without anyone turning off the radio because they disagree with what the song says is a variation of just a few themes:

God’s glory is immense! (yes, of course). Jesus died for you and me (true). Jesus helps us up when we are down (amen).

Imagine how boring the CAFs would be if all we discussed was what was permitted to be sung on Christian radio.

Hi PR,
I thought of you when I heard the following Christian music video today. It is called ‘Creed’ and was a beautiful (in my opinion) contemporary Christian song back in the late 90’s by Rich Mullins. Here it is, in case you had never heard it before.

youtube.com/watch?v=9LR2hFP1yb4

I believe in its contents and consider it a contemporary rendition of the Apostles Creed. Although my AOG church doesn’t recite any creeds, this is what most protestants have in common with Catholics, in my view.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PR,
I thought of you when I heard the following Christian music video today. It is called ‘Creed’ and was a beautiful (in my opinion) contemporary Christian song back in the late 90’s by Rich Mullins. Here it is, in case you had never heard it before.

youtube.com/watch?v=9LR2hFP1yb4

I believe in its contents and consider it a contemporary rendition of the Apostles Creed. Although my AOG church doesn’t recite any creeds, this is what most protestants have in common with Catholics, in my view.

Beautiful!

However, my children learned all this theology in the song in the first grade.

That’s my point.

In order to have agreement in doctrine, one has to go back to a first grader’s understanding of Christianity.

That is most certainly not what God meant when He created us for Him, to know Him to love Him–to stay stunted in our apprehending of the Godhead.

 

[PJM]

=Tommy999;12589283]Background
I’ve always viewed both the Catholic Church and most protestant denominations as Christians, believers of equal standing in the eyes of God. Of course, there are individuals in both groups who are undoubtedly more serious about their faith than others, but I am speaking in general terms here

Hi Tommy; that is not what the bible teaches. Mt. 10:1-8; Mt. 16:15-19; John 17:11-16- and Mt.28:16-20 if read carefully prove my point.
.
Space is limited so excuse the edits

Question1:

What is meant by that and why is that term chosen instead of “denomination”, “faith tradition”, or “communion”, as I’ve also seen used by other Catholics on CAF?

Speaking for my self, I mean no disrespect. I am just trying to identify a Christian faith outside of the RCC

Truly SORRY. But factually ALL Christian faiths outside of the One Founded by Christ are at least in Schism, and Protestants {TO PROTEST] are teaching various heresies on Faith matters opposed to Catholic Teachings.

Full Definition of SECT

(per Merriam online dictionary – full definition section)
*1a : a dissenting or schismatic religious body; especially : one regarded as extreme or heretical
1b : a religious denomination *

I’m truly sorry for your distress, and I DISLIKE being so blunt, but Because God is One; God’s Faith can and is also only One. There is NO intent to slander; but when faced with truth we must share it.

However, the word ‘Sect’ can also be defined as “a religious denomination”, which is how I would describe most protestant churches?QUOTE]

and that is my and our preference too.

Question2:

Why does it matter?

For example, are protestants like me considered lesser Christians or perhaps heretics, or are we what the CCC describes as brothers in Christ who "the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection" in CCC 818?

Certainly we are is a broad sense “brothers.” READ CCC 846, 847…

But Christ Founded just One New Church, with One New Faith

**Eph. 4:1-7 **" I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body[means one Church] and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith,[Means just One set of Faith beliefs One baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. **But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ. {Explains why there are so many sets of differing beliefs.[PJM}

[QUOTETommy

The Problem for me personally Tommy is that I have NO desire to hurt anyone’s feeling.

Yer as a Catholic on a Catholic Forum I am obligated to share the Truth which has to be singular.

All faith were never seen as equal by Yahweh or Christ. And One true God; with One True set of Faith beliefs [practices are a different matter], and One Chosen People replaced by One Founded Church.

**Mt. 16:18-19 " And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church,[singular] and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."

Mt. 28:18-20"And Jesus coming,** spoke to them**, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [Go therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded [taught to] you:** **and behold I am with you **all days, even to the consummation of the world"

Tommy I apologize for using that term and will find other words to use. But understand that we Catholics must share the truth and defend our Faith.

God Bless my friend:thumbsup:

Patrick
[/quote]

 

[Tommy999]

Beautiful!

However, my children learned all this theology in the song in the first grade.

That’s my point.

In order to have agreement in doctrine, one has to go back to a first grader’s understanding of Christianity.

That is most certainly not what God meant when He created us for Him, to know Him to love Him–to stay stunted in our apprehending of the Godhead.

Not sure I understand your point. I have always considered the Apostles Creed to be a “Gettysburg Address” like concise summary of the Christian faith in a nutshell.

My main goal for coming to CAF was to learn more about Catholicism (I had no background in it) and to compare my faith with Catholics in an environment of mutual respect and possibly enhance my walk with Christ.

The reason why I started this thread in the first place was because I sensed that some Catholics on CAF tend to come across as condescending and arrogant, while many others are very helpful and charitable. When you called what we share in common as “first grade theology”, that kind of statement only fosters the former instead of the latter.

 

[PRmerger]

Not sure I understand your point. I have always considered the Apostles Creed to be a “Gettysburg Address” like concise summary of the Christian faith in a nutshell.

Indeed. We are agreed!

My main goal for coming to CAF was to learn more about Catholicism (I had no background in it) and to compare my faith with Catholics in an environment of mutual respect and possibly enhance my walk with Christ.

Excellent. You are very welcome here.

The reason why I started this thread in the first place was because I sensed that some Catholics on CAF tend to come across as condescending and arrogant, while many others are very helpful and charitable. When you called what we share in common as “first grade theology”, that kind of statement only fosters the former instead of the latter.

Oh! I meant no condescension.

However, do you have a way to refute my position that when we say that most Christians can agree on their theology, what we are agreeing to is a 1st grader’s theology?

Is this not true? If it is false, can you provide some arguments supporting your assertion?

 

[Tommy999]

Indeed. We are agreed!

Excellent. You are very welcome here.

Oh! I meant no condescension.

However, do you have a way to refute my position that when we say that most Christians can agree on their theology, what we are agreeing to is a 1st grader’s theology?

Is this not true? If it is false, can you provide some arguments supporting your assertion?

I was referring to the core beliefs of the largest protestant faith communities in the USA as encompassed in the Apostles’ Creed. For example, the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons do not share in some of those beliefs, as I understand it.

Jesus Christ came down from heaven to bring our redemption through his death on the cross and our faith in Him. He was the lamb who was slain for the sins of the world. We are to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind and strive to live a godly life with God’s help and guidance.

Therefore, in my mind, what we share in common are the essentials of the Christian faith.

Doctrines such as the Marian doctrines, whether holy communion is really the actual body and blood of Christ transubstantiated or just a symbol of his body and blood that were shed for us, and some other differences, though significant, are secondary to whether we are Christians or not, or at least that is how I see it.

Therefore, if we share the essential beliefs, we have a strong foundation to build on.

I do not believe that I have to believe everything that you do in order for us to be able to be
fellow brothers in Christ. In short, I expect Catholics and protestants to be in heaven together some day if we stay faithful to God through Christ our redeemer.

Whether that is first grade theology or not is up to someone else to decide. I do not see much relevance to it. What I do see as being relevant is the belief in the core doctrines that constitute whether someone is a Christian or not, and I believe that Catholics and most protestants share those core essential beliefs.

If I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t have gone to CAF in the first place.

 

[Tommy999]

Oops, posted twice by accident. Sorry.

 

[PRmerger]

Therefore, in my mind, what we share in common are the essentials of the Christian faith.

I have a hard time whenever a person who goes by the Bible as their authority says the above.

It prompts the question: what are these essentials, and where does the Bible mention these essentials?

It seems like a man-made tradition to me…as I’ve never read a single Bible verse that talks about these “essentials of the Christian faith”.