The useless Bible?

[onenow1]

Every new age philosophy along with scores of others make every effort to topple the bible. A Course In Miracles one of the larger more popular new age doctrines, promoted by Opera on TV like to reference Jesus as a model but they never listen or mention His words, except for maybe “the kingdom of heaven is within you”. Just as the others “non believer and new age rs” do, the bible is nonsense to them. To me its no surprise that non believers minimize the bible but as far as I can tell, this forum is full of catholics that at every point also profess the bible is useless beyond simply pointing to the authority of its church and magistrate. Its useless without the church to tell you what it says, its also repeated many times that its incomplete. It looks to me like the catholic church and non Jesus believers both have a common goal, get rid of the bible.
What say you?

onenow1:

Jesus Christ has all AUTHORITY:

Romans 13:1-2, “Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities, for there exists no authority except from GOD, AND THOSE WHO EXIST HAVE BEEN APPOINTED BY GOD Therefore, he who resists the AUTHORITY resists the ordinance of GOD; and THEY THAT RESIST BRING ON THEMSELVES CONDEMNATION.”

onenow1:

Jesus Christ passed on the AUTHORITY to His Apostles to act in His behalf

Luke 10:16, “He who HEARS YOU, HEARS ME; AND HE WHO REJECTS YOU, REJECTS ME; AND HE WHO REJECTS ME, REJECTS HIM WHO SENT ME.”

John 20:21, “…As the Father has sent Me, I ALSO SEND YOU.” When He had said this, he breathed upon them, and said to them, “RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT; WHOSE SINS YOU SHALL FORGIVE, THEY ARE FORGIVEN THEM; WHOSE SINS YOU SHALL RETAIN, THEY ARE RETAINED.”

onenow1:

Jesus Christ founded His ONE Church:

Matt 16:18, “And I say to thee, thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church.”

onenow1:

Jesus Christ, did not say Churches, did He?

Matt 18:15-18,“But if your brother sin against you, go and show him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take with you one or two more so that on the word of two or three witnesses every word may be confirmed. AND IF HE REFUSE TO HEAR THEM, APPEAL TO THE CHURCH, BUT IF HE REFUSES TO HEAR EVEN THE CHURCH, LET HIM BE TO YOU AS THE HEATHEN AND THE PUBLICAN.”

onenow1:

He who is TRUTH, Jesus Christ, did not say appeal to the Bible did He,That’s been done by the myriad of ecclesial communities out there that can’t agree on many things the bible intends to make known.

Eph 1:22, “And all things He made subject under His feet, and Him he gave as Head over all the Church, which is indeed His Body, the completion of Him who fills all with all.”

onenow1:

The Church which Jesus Christ founded does indeed have the FINAL
AUTHORITY, since Jesus Himself is the Head of His Body.

1Tim 3:15, “…but in order that you may know, if I am delayed, HOW TO CONDUCT YOURSELF IN THE HOUSE OF GOD, WHICH IS THE CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD, THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF THE TRUTH.”

onenow1:

John 1-1 the church is not toppling scripture as you suggest look above,Quite a bit of scripture wouldn’t you say and the church takes it literally ?

onenow1:

The church has it right John II. CHURCH, BIBLE AND
MAGISTARIUM

Peace and God bless onenow1opcorn:

 

[John_one_one]

What’s the matter? You had plenty to say when you thought you were the one with the evidence? You understand every part of that blizzard of confusion. You just don’t want to admit that it disagrees with you. You came here looking for a confrontation, so don’t get mad just because we’re defending ourselves.

After taking the time to read all your copy paste I would say its rooted in calling into question the entire NT. Of course this is just what I started this thread for in the first place.

It starts with trying to place the blame on the type of tradition.

Already we see the type of tradition Jesus will be castigating.

As we move on I am of the opinion you dont change, add to or alter any of the Laws given from God to Moses. All of the examples given for the extra laws were not given from God but were just as Jesus said the laws "traditions of men.

The first page ends by stating:

That is how the scene ends, because that was the point of it: not, “Scripture versus Tradition” but "People, listen to reason: it’s not the dirt on the outside that matters but the dirt in the soul.

Jesus is making the point that will be controversial till the end the flesh by action can not clean or soil the soul. What is inside is manifest outside by the works of the flesh. Because action can easily be counterfeit doing good works and being baptized are not an indication of nor does it provide cleaning to the inside. Works of the flesh simply put are the manifestation of what is inside but as I said it is easy counterfeited.

I also like the way he moves the whole castigating away from tradition in the first place. Now that he has you convinced that tradition but the type of tradion is the problem he continues.

First he now accuses Jesus of plagiarizing someone elses work. this is repeated many times in the new age movements. They say that the whole bible and the Jews plagiarized everything ,he says the same.

Jesus seems to have taken the form of this teaching from the work of Rabbi Hillel (40 B.C. – 10 A.D.), who taught, "What you do not like should be done to you, do not to your fellow; this is the whole Torah, all the rest is commentary.

Jesus was free to use whatever sources He wanted, and if He could quote frequently from the Bible - which is the Word of God in the words of men - He could quote a rabbinic tradition like this just as easily.

This one questions the bible.

The next one claims that it is nothing new, but he still fails to address how Jesus can to say those words. He was asked what is the greatest commandment. Because God has been telling this to men from the beginning I dont find it strange that other cultures know this truth but your writter never makes this distinction.

Though the golden rule had also appeared in Confucius, Buddhism, Lao-Tze, Hinduism, etc., it did not have so close a form: not only (a) do unto others as they would do unto you, but (b) this sums up the whole Bible. Hillel’s writings were, of course, very respected in the Jewish community, and yet were a tradition apart from the Bible.

We also should not forget that Jesus wrote nothing down Himself

Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

This next passage is used by the catholic church to prove that Jesus supported the Pharisees. The famous phrase I might add.

Finally, there is Jesus’ famous upholding of the “Chair of Moses” as a teaching authority (at least for the time being), an element of the faith that does not appear in the Bible, but comes from tradition (Matthew 23:2-3).

I would suppose thats why Jesus immediately ordered His disciples to wash there hands .
This tradition he is speaking of is clearly the law of Mosses not the extras that were added. Jesus never made the word of God given to Mosses of no effect, he the writer is calling it tradition. So now were calling the OT law tradition.

Now he will move next to show that its the type of tradition instead of what Jesus clearly said ,the Pharisees were monkeying around with Gods word.

1. In castigating the Pharisees’ corrupt tradition, Jesus was dealing with regulations that had clearly passed over into neurotic detail (such as not eating a particular egg because the hen had exerted itself on a feast day).

He then continues to throw doubt on the NT by the following statements

“But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you.’”

This scene with Moses never appears in the Old Testament. The writer is drawing upon a Tradition (which appears in a work entitled “The Assumption of Moses”). “The Assumption of Moses” was not inspired by God, as all agree, but it contained this true Sacred Tradition.

In 2 Timothy 3:8, Paul gives names for the magicians who opposed Moses in Pharaoh’s court — Jannes and Jambres — but no names are given for these men when the scene appears in the Old Testament (Exodus 7:8ff).

Though Paul is referring to an Old Testament scene, he is not just using the Old Testament. He is using a tradition.

In James 5:17 we read,

“Eli’jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth.”

When we look this scene up in the Old Testament, it says nothing about Elijah praying (1 Kings 17).

James is using a tradition.

In 1 Corinthians 10:1-4, we read about a rock following Moses and the Israelites in the desert. The scene in question, though, in the Old Testament, says nothing about the rock following them around (Exodus 17:1-7; Numbers 20:2-13).

It is a tradition.

Now I ask you, what do these differences in speaking have to do with taking away or adding to the meaning of scripture? None that I can see. Its just a clever way to cast doubt on the NT and at the same time support the traditions of the catholic church which in many ways changes the whole meaning of the Old and NT. As long as you believe Math 16:18 that Peter became the Rock of our salvation, the Roch that is spoken about in the OT. and believe Mat 23:2 that Jesus tells us to do as the Pharisees say you are catholic. I dont read about Jesus or the disciples doing as the Pharisees said beyond there teaching of the law as it was given to Moses. Thats the point in Mark ch 7.

I really like the way Mark and the Holy Spirit adds in
“And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches”.
Do you have any fancy washing practices in the catholic churches?
Including special ways to wash the inside of men?

 

[rpp]

What’s the matter? You had plenty to say when you thought you were the one with the evidence? You understand every part of that blizzard of confusion. You just don’t want to admit that it disagrees with you. You came here looking for a confrontation, so don’t get mad just because we’re defending ourselves.

It was you who said that Holy Scripture has been “excised”. That was your word.

ased on your answer, it seems clear that simply post yto get attention. You are addicted to attention. You are obviously not inyterested in a sensible and logical discussion. You are simply here to scold and make yourself feel both superior and, simultaneously, persecuted.

I will not give such an intellectually dishonest person the gratification of any further attention.

You are not worth wasting any time.

Remember, yoiu have lied to support your twisted perspective. Therefore, since you have had to lie to support make your opinion an perspective, your perspectiver and opions is utterly without merit and totally riduculouss. I will not have a discussion with such a person.

I will however continue to watch you humiliate yourself.

 

[rpp]

Who said anything about “excised” the comprehension of statements makes one wonder?
Why do I trust them? because it would have been very difficult with so many copies in circulation.
carm.org/questions/about-bible/manuscript-evidence-superior-new-testament-reliability

An other reliable source
I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

It was you who said that Holy Scripture has been “excised”. That was your word.

It seems abundantly clear that simply post to get attention. You are addicted to attention. You are obviously not interested in a sensible and logical discussion. You are simply here to scold and mock Catholics without any clear idea as to what Catholics actually teach and believe. You do this to make yourself feel both superior and, simultaneously, persecuted.

I will not give such an intellectually dishonest person the gratification of any further attention.

You are not worth wasting any time.

You have made knowingly false statements to support your twisted perspective. Therefore, since you have had to lie to support make your opinion and perspective, your perspective and opinions is utterly without merit and totally ridiculous. I will not have a discussion with such a dishonest person.

You behavior does not glorify God, rather, it appears that is likely offends God as you have to lie to make your points.

I will not give you any more attention. I will, however, continue to watch you humiliate yourself.

 

[John_one_one]

I am doing no such thing. I don’t interpret scriptures and twist them. How can Jesus rebuke someone for holding on to traditions that he called them to hold on to???

You are confusing tradition with the word of God.

In the language as we use it, following the word of God can be and sometimes is called tradition.
From Jesus perspective tradition was separate from the given law, but was still taught and handed along threw the ages granting the use of the word tradition.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men.

I would say that Jesus made a clear distinction between law of God and of men.

Now I fully belive the NT books and chose to not exceed what is clearly taught.
But you have given all authority to the CC by way of Mat 16:18 trusting in their traditions that Peter or anyone else clearly mentioned in the NT letters.

its late good night

 

[Rolltide]

The most common statement made is
“you would not have the bible if it wasn’t for the CC”
“catholics wrote the NT bible”
Are you now down playing those statements?

Not at all.

You would likely say, “The Holy Spirit inspired the choice of the canon of the Bible.”

whereas, Catholics would say, "The Holy Spirit inspired the Catholic Church to decide the choice of the canon of the Bible.

So, you would not have the Bible if it wasn’t for the Catholic Church.

And yes, Catholics wrote the NT because ALL Christians, save for heretical groups like the Gnostics, Docetists, and Arians, were Catholic (including the Twelve Apostles and St. Paul). Catholic simply meant “universal”. You either believed in certain universal beliefs common to ALL Christians (like the Trinity and the resurrection), or you did not.

By the way, a good bit of your arguments here rest on the Book of Revelation. Exactly how did that book end up in the Biblical canon? A LOT of Christians refused to use it…

 

[rpp]

Not at all.

You would likely say, “The Holy Spirit inspired the choice of the canon of the Bible.”

whereas, Catholics would say, "The Holy Spirit inspired the Catholic Church to decide the choice of the canon of the Bible.

So, you would not have the Bible if it wasn’t for the Catholic Church.

And yes, Catholics wrote the NT because ALL Christians, save for heretical groups like the Gnostics, Docetists, and Arians, were Catholic (including the Twelve Apostles and St. Paul). Catholic simply meant “universal”. You either believed in certain universal beliefs common to ALL Christians (like the Trinity and the resurrection), or you did not.

By the way, a good bit of your arguments here rest on the Book of Revelation. Exactly how did that book end up in the Biblical canon? A LOT of Christians refused to use it…

Rolltide, I have admired your information and knowledge on this foru for a couple of years now. I would encourage you to consider that your time may be better spent on different threads.

 

[John_one_one]

It was you who said that Holy Scripture has been “excised”. That was your word.

It seems abundantly clear that simply post to get attention. You are addicted to attention. You are obviously not interested in a sensible and logical discussion. You are simply here to scold and mock Catholics without any clear idea as to what Catholics actually teach and believe. You do this to make yourself feel both superior and, simultaneously, persecuted.

I will not give such an intellectually dishonest person the gratification of any further attention.

You are not worth wasting any time.

You have made knowingly false statements to support your twisted perspective. Therefore, since you have had to lie to support make your opinion and perspective, your perspective and opinions is utterly without merit and totally ridiculous. I will not have a discussion with such a dishonest person.

You behavior does not glorify God, rather, it appears that is likely offends God as you have to lie to make your points.

I will not give you any more attention. I will, however, continue to watch you humiliate yourself.

I made false statements? just what were they? let me check the door …yep it says Apologetics I dont call you a liar simply because you dont agree with me.

As far as an attention freak or addicted to attention take a look at what the pope and cardinals are wearing, sporting around in this year. All the while demanding that the whole world listen to them and them alone. You dont think your catholics leaders want attention? Just what function they serve “their garments and golden canes”?

your perspective and opinions is utterly without merit and totally ridiculous

My opinion also

 

[nuntym]

snip

The word tradition occurs only 14 times in the whole New Testament, in the Old Testament not once. We find 8 references of traditions are from Jesus himself, all of which are unfavorable.

And what of the other 6 citations? Hmm…

snip

Jesus consistently appealed to the Bible and the apostles followed this tradition.

Nice tradition

Hmm, how about

[23] The same day Sad’ducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection; and they asked him a question,
[24] saying, “Teacher, Moses said, If a man dies, having no children, his brother must marry the widow, and raise up children for his brother.' [25] Now there were seven brothers among us; the first married, and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother. [26] So too the second and third, down to the seventh. [27] After them all, the woman died. [28] In the resurrection, therefore, to which of the seven will she be wife? For they all had her." [29] But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. [30] For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. [31] And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, [32] I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
Matthew 22:23-22 (RSV)

Where in the available Scripture of the time (Old Testament) did Jesus get the information that “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven?” And why did Jesus also appeal to “the power of God” as well as scripture in this instance if He consistently “appealed to the Bible” as you say?

How about

[1] I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
[2] and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
[3] and all ate the same supernatural food
[4] and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4 (RSV)

Where did St. Paul get the idea that a rock followed the Israelites during the Exodus?

When St. James said,

[5] Or do you suppose it is in vain that the ***scripture ***says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit which he has made to dwell in us”?
James 4:5 (RSV)

In what book of the Old Testament did he get this citation?

St. Paul said

[16] And when this letter has been read among you, have it read also in the church of the La-odice’ans; and see that you read also the letter from La-odice’a.
Colossians 4:16 (RSV)

Why is a currently non-existing letter from St. Paul to Laodicea, not part of the current Bible. to be read with the same authority as this letter which is part of our current Bible canon?

Again from St. Paul,

[9]I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men;
[10] not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
[11] But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber – not even to eat with such a one.
1 Corinthians 5:9-11 (RSV)

Where is this letter that St. Paul mentioned in our current Bible, and why does St. Paul emphasize as much authority to it as this one in our current Bible?

 

[Thing]

Originally Posted by John one one:

I apologize, See my post above?^^^
I was just rehashing and seen it. And I was referring to the OT. I thought you were remaking about a latter post. The OT is in the bible isn’t it?

Show me where Jesus did not or could not support all that He said with written scripture.
Show me His traditions, and I’ll show you the OT.

I sincerely apologize I made a mistake. But not that I was implying Jesus quoted the NT I just thought most scripture readers accepted “knew” that fact without needing to explicitly state that impossibility.

Show me where Jesus did not or could not support all that He said with written scripture.
Show me His traditions, and I’ll show you the OT.

The [written] Scriptures Jesus quoted from, interestingly, include Scriptures in the Septuagint, below; … are just a few places in the Deuterocanonicals which Jesus and the Apostles referenced.
Protestants also used the Septuagint when they compiled their Bible but they did not include those books referenced by Jesus and the Apostles.

Sirach 28:2
Sirach 48:10
Judith 13:18
Judith 16:17
Wisdom 9:16
Wisdom 3:1
1 Macc. 1:54
2 Maccabees 6:14
Tobit 4:15
Tobit 7:18
Baruch 4:37
Baruch 4:7

 

[tobinatorstark]

You are confusing tradition with the word of God.

In the language as we use it, following the word of God can be and sometimes is called tradition.
From Jesus perspective tradition was separate from the given law, but was still taught and handed along threw the ages granting the use of the word tradition.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men.

I would say that Jesus made a clear distinction between law of God and of men.

Now I fully belive the NT books and chose to not exceed what is clearly taught.
But you have given all authority to the CC by way of Mat 16:18 trusting in their traditions that Peter or anyone else clearly mentioned in the NT letters.

its late good night

I am doing no such thing. Catholics have no man made traditions. All Protestant denominations do. You clearly only have selective reading. I gave you a whole list of verses in which you paid no attention to. Take you blinders off and read instead of trying to interpret what he or she said all time.

False again.

 

[tobinatorstark]

AUTHORITATIVE CHURCH
Mt 28:18-20 - Jesus delegates all power to Apostles
Jn 20:23 - power to forgive sin
1Cor 11:23-24 - power to offer sacrifice (Eucharist)
Lk 10:16 - power to speak with Christ’s voice
Mt 18:18 - power to legislate
Mt 18:17 - power to discipline

credit- the OP in another thread.

 

[wmscott]

John one one, first I want to thank you for having the character to apologize when needed. This does show that you are of good character. Although you are firmly against the teachings of the Catholic Church, you still are able to see error. To admit that you were wrong, for whatever reason, is not an easy thing to do when discussing things here. I know that I have had to admit errors also. This is where true dialog comes out.

You state that Tradition is only mentioned 14 times, let us look at this a little. Since you seem so keen on following the Sacred Scriptures, which is a good thing by the way, there is two ways “Tradition” is cited in the Bible. One way is in a positive light when discussing “Sacred Tradition” and then in a negative light when discussing “Man-Made Tradition”. There is a very clear and indisputable difference between the two. As for the “Man-Made Tradition” it is very clear that it is counterproductive and needed to be avoided. The Bible clearly in Matthew 15: 1-6, Mark 7: 1-13, & Colossians 2:8 (see below, I have provided the full passages so that it would be in context) warns against “Man-Made Tradition”. In the Gospel of Mark, Jesus is talking about the “Man-Made Tradition” of the washing of hands before eating (Ritual Purification).
Sacred Tradition on the other hand is also very clearly spelled out in the Bible. The below passages are provided to help put this issue into perspective. Notice that not every passage specifically says the word “Tradition” (Sacred Tradition), however in reading the passages it is abundantly clear that this is what is being conveyed. My only hope is that you and others reading this are not going to say if it does not specifically say the word “Sacred Tradition” then it is not so. There are many words that I know you believe in that are not specifically stated in the Bible. This is where 2Pet 1:20-21 really comes into play. Because of Sacred Tradition, Apostolic Succession, and the Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church, Sacred Scripture can be properly interpreted. This is why the Catholic Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

Continued…

 

[wmscott]

PART TWO

Now before you get to the scriptural citations below, let me ask you a question. In light of the explanations above regarding the differences between “Sacred Tradition” and “Man-Made Tradition”, and now knowing the differences between the two, If the Bible says to hold fast to tradition (Sacred Tradition), how is it that you can deny, or disobey the very Bible you hold in such high esteem? If you do this seems to be a double standard then, and really boils down to “if it is Catholic, it is wrong”.

“Sacred Tradition”

1Cor 11:2 - I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

2Thess 2:15 - Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

2Thess 3:6 - We instruct you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us.

1 Peter 1:18 Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things as gold or silver, from your vain conversation of the tradition of your fathers:

Acts Of Apostles 6:14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the traditions which Moses delivered unto us.

Galatians 1:14 And I made progress in the Jews’ religion above many of my equals in my own nation, being more abundantly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

Jn 21:25 - There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

Mk 13:31 - Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

2Tim 1:13 - Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

2Tim2:2 - And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

2Pet 1:20-21 - Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God

2Pet 3:15-16 - And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures

1Pet 1:25 - but the word of the Lord remains forever." This is the word that has been proclaimed to you.

Rom 10:17 - Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.

1Cor 15:1-2 - Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Mk 16:15 - He said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.

“Man-Made Tradition”

Matthew 15: 1-6 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They do not wash (their) hands when they eat a meal.” He said to them in reply, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall die.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to father or mother, “Any support you might have had from me is dedicated to God,” need not honor his father.’ You have nullified the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

Mark 7: 1-13 Now when the Pharisees with some scribes who had come from Jerusalem gathered around him, they observed that some of his disciples ate their meals with unclean, that is, unwashed, hands. (For the Pharisees and, in fact, all Jews, do not eat without carefully washing their hands, keeping the tradition of the elders. And on coming from the marketplace they do not eat without purifying themselves. And there are many other things that they have traditionally observed, the purification of cups and jugs and kettles (and beds).) So the Pharisees and scribes questioned him, “Why do your disciples not follow the tradition of the elders but instead eat a meal with unclean hands?” He responded, “Well did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.’ You disregard God’s commandment but cling to human tradition.” He went on to say, “How well you have set aside the commandment of God in order to uphold your tradition! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall die.’ Yet you say, ‘If a person says to father or mother, “Any support you might have had from me is qorban”’ (meaning, dedicated to God), you allow him to do nothing more for his father or mother. You nullify the word of God in favor of your tradition that you have handed on. And you do many such things.”

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one captivate you with an empty, seductive philosophy according to human tradition, according to the elemental powers of the world and not according to Christ.

 

[ahollars]

Jesus is making the point that will be controversial till the end the flesh by action can not clean or soil the soul. What is inside is manifest outside by the works of the flesh. Because action can easily be counterfeit doing good works and being baptized are not an indication of nor does it provide cleaning to the inside. Works of the flesh simply put are the manifestation of what is inside but as I said it is easy counterfeited.

Sola Fide. I repeat, you are not telling us anything we haven’t heard before.

First he now accuses Jesus of plagiarizing someone elses work. this is repeated many times in the new age movements. They say that the whole bible and the Jews plagiarized everything ,he says the same.

It is not plagiarism to use a known teaching tool that Jesus would have learned of Himself growing up. The point was that He was using words and a methodology that His audience would understand.

This next passage is used by the catholic church to prove that Jesus supported the Pharisees. The famous phrase I might add.

Now you’re just being stubborn, and statements like that don’t help your case. That was not the point of the paragraph. You wanted examples of Traditions not in Scripture, and we pointed out to you several instances of Jesus using Tradition Himself in His words. You cannot accept that Jesus is allowed to do that, but not His Church. Tradition does not add to Scripture, it supports and confirms it, and everything we do as Catholics can be traced back to the Early Church Fathers’ writings on the faith. I suppose that you think what you are doing is what the early Christians did. The evidence says otherwise, if you care to even look.

Do you think you know everything just because you read the Bible on you own? (as if we don’t) How wise is it for someone to believe that he is more learned than all his predecessors? You actually believe that your limited study is more thorough and accurate than 2000 years of reflection by over 1,000,000,000 people?

Now I ask you, what do these differences in speaking have to do with taking away or adding to the meaning of scripture? None that I can see. Its just a clever way to cast doubt on the NT and at the same time support the traditions of the catholic church which in many ways changes the whole meaning of the Old and NT. As long as you believe Math 16:18 that Peter became the Rock of our salvation, the Roch that is spoken about in the OT. and believe Mat 23:2 that Jesus tells us to do as the Pharisees say you are catholic. I dont read about Jesus or the disciples doing as the Pharisees said beyond there teaching of the law as it was given to Moses. Thats the point in Mark ch 7.

Then why would Saint Paul say this:

“But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.”

~2nd Thessalonians 2:13-15~

St. Paul knew his written word did not contain everything. Not only does he admit it to the faithful, but he also advises them to hold on to what was not written. Your theory falls short here.

I really like the way Mark and the Holy Spirit adds in
“And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches”.
Do you have any fancy washing practices in the catholic churches?
Including special ways to wash the inside of men?

As a matter of fact, yes, we do, although I wouldn’t call it “fancy”. The rubrics for the Holy Eucharist are consecrated items that are to be used solely for the Sacrifice of the Mass, and absolutely nothing else. Nothing is too good for Jesus, and anything set aside for Him is not to be profaned by anyone or anything else. Only priests are allowed to clean them. There is only one approved method, so as to not desecrate Our Lord. But since you don’t believe in the Real Presence, you think it’s just a ritual.

You know, this is getting old. You’re basic problem is that you began your premise with the assumption that “If it’s not the Bible, then it isn’t true.” The problem with that is that the Bible itself says that is not so.

“Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

~John 21:25~

As for what you said about Mary. I’ll spare the massive copying and leave everyone with this, but you probably won’t even read it: click here to understand why Mary is more important than the other Saints

And as for statues, I’ll get rid of them when you throw away your pictures of Jesus and any cross that you might have. They are simply images to help us not get distracted when we want to focus and nothing more. Believe whatever you want.

I have other things to do. I’m done here.

 

[John_one_one]

Lets address the concept of the entire bible over view in light of the apparent different concepts between the Law the Commandments and traditions of Men. A condensed testimony of Gods witness and work from the Old to the New.

In the beginning their was no Law only the warning to Adan and Eve that they could not eat of the tree of knowledge. They did, and just as God said and the serpent denied they died. Their relationship with God was separated.

Gen 3 “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

God them promised a redeemer

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:…
…verse 13…
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

God latter made a choice about fulfilling this promise to mankind with Abram.
And later after the sons of Jacob were in Egypt called these people out of Egypt and formed a convent with them. The 10 Commandments were written by God and the Laws were penned by Mosses with Gods instruction. The 10 commandments went into the Ark and the Laws were ordered placed outside the Ark this is a very important piece of the understanding of Gods plan and purpose.

Det 31:14 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, the days approach when you must die; call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of meeting, that I may inaugurate him.”

Just as God said to Adam death was the result of eating the tree in the midst of the garden.

19 “Now therefore, write down this song for yourselves, and teach it to the children of Israel; put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for Me against the children of Israel. 20 When I have brought them to the land flowing with milk and honey, of which I swore to their fathers, and they have eaten and filled themselves and grown fat, then they will turn to other gods and serve them; and they will provoke Me and break My covenant. 21 Then it shall be, when many evils and troubles have come upon them, that this song will testify against them as a witness; for it will not be forgotten in the mouths of their descendants, for I know the inclination of their behavior today, even before I have brought them to the land of which I swore to give them.”
22 Therefore Moses wrote this song the same day, and taught it to the children of Israel. 23 Then He inaugurated Joshua the son of Nun, and said, “Be strong and of good courage; for you shall bring the children of Israel into the land of which I swore to them, and I will be with you.”
24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

This Law was for governing the people and extension “image” “reflection” of the 10 Commandments next to the the Ark that contained them. It is these Laws that God gave to Mosses that the Pharisees had added to, these Laws Jesus accused them of were mens traditions.

Mark CH 7 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men… "How well you have set aside the commandment of God in order to uphold your tradition! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and 'Whoever curses father or mother shall die.

When you apply this concept to the text it is easy to make the distinction between commandment, laws, and tradition. Isaiah is quoted by Jesus and he refers to tradition as the commandments of men.
as it is written
This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

The 10 are still in effect today and its impossible for man to fulfill them, Jesus fulfilled both the Law and the 10. In the NT we can see that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law and the commandments. Threw Him we over come death the fall of Adam and Eve that was shared will all of their children. He brought men a step closer to the unfallen condition of Adam. I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Jesus restored the Spiritual relationship with men to the Father. This was not possible in the OT. Only a few Patriarchs and Prophets were lead by the HS in the OT. The people were commanded to keep the law to maintain grace with God an impossible task. Paul wrire extensively about no longer being under the law but under the grace of Jesus. There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. The Spirit, the baptism of Jesus not the baptism of John. I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. But the catholic message misses the fullness of the NT message and instead esablishs its self as nothing more than a new / old convent system.

Mosses = Peter in Mat 16:18
The Law that sat beside the Ark = catechism
Levis = cardinals and priest
sacrifices = 7 sacraments = the Eucharist
Catholic Church = Nation of Israel birth right
Do you really believe that Jesus came to establish a mirror image of the old system with the requirements of laws carried out in the flesh with nothing more than a new set of laws that you established as nessisary for salvation. If you do you dont understand the NT. As i said above God mission is to restore the fallen state of man threw Jesus and the HS not to simply change the law from the one that sat next to the ark into the new one known as the catechism. It did not have the power to save ether if it did Jesus would have never needed to come to earth in the flesh to fulfill it.

Continued:

 

[John_one_one]

Continued from above

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Notice what it says the commandments the 10 and the faith of Jesus. Jesus even summarized 10 into 2 He did not come to establish more laws that would be impossible to fulfill.
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Nor did He come to establish a few men that would distribute the HS by means of baptism at their own discretion or threw them. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5
Its between you and Jesus in the Holy Spirit. Its not you threw the pope, Mary or some priest then Jesus. Or even some special place or RCC. He did not reestablish a mirror system of the old system in the catholic church. That is exactly the catholic message to the world and what those still under the sting of death see, another bunch of laws just as it exsisted in the old system under the children of Abram. As Jesus told this woman. Men worship in the Spirit directly threw Jesus, this is what is pleasing to the Father.

20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the** true worshipers** will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Buy the way being saved and receiving the HS is no easy task in this this day and age IMO.
Everyone has heard about Jesus and all the preconceived notions. You really need to pray listen to everyone and study the bible then listen some more comparing what you find with scripture then seek some more.
Seek and you shall find knock and door will be opened unto you. Getting to that door takes a sincere heart and a mind diligently seeking the truth.

 

[John_one_one]

Sola Fide.
You know, this is getting old. You’re basic problem is that you began your premise with the assumption that “If it’s not the Bible, then it isn’t true.” The problem with that is that the Bible itself says that is not so.

“Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

It says Jesus “did” not Jesus taught or said other things as well. John is commenting on all the miraculous miracles Jesus preformed. You do know the english meaning of did as a past tense action? This is what I was referring to several pages ago about teaching the world new meanings to words. I do read literature outside of the bible including apocryphal books, do they add anything to the “canonized” bible? No but IMO it can broaden your understanding but it doesn’t add to it.

 

[Religio71]

Chapter and verse for the Bible being the only thing you need for salvation.

 

[John_one_one]

Chapter and verse for the Bible being the only thing you need for salvation.

You being a LDS you should be very at home with the additional information needed for salvation, please voice your opinion.