The useless Bible?

[Religio71]

You being a LDS you should be very at home with the additional information needed for salvation, please voice your opinion.

I’m Catholic, not LDS.

Chapter and verse for the Bible being the only thing you need for salvation.

 

[cassini]

Every new age philosophy along with scores of others make every effort to topple the bible. A Course In Miracles one of the larger more popular new age doctrines, promoted by Opera on TV like to reference Jesus as a model but they never listen or mention His words, except for maybe “the kingdom of heaven is within you”. Just as the others “non believer and new agers” do, the bible is nonsense to them. To me its no surprise that non believers minimize the bible but as far as I can tell, this forum is full of catholics that at every point also profess the bible is useless beyond simply pointing to the authority of its church and magistrate. Its useless without the church to tell you what it says, its also repeated many times that its incomplete. It looks to me like the catholic church and non Jesus believers both have a common goal, get rid of the bible.
What say you?

Just had a quick look through this interesting thread. My speciality is the Galileo case in which the Church of 1616 and 1633 interpreted the Scriptures as the Fathers did, geocentrically. Now the number of Catholics that now laugh at this idea number about 99.99999% of the flock. So what do the do, interpret it now in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION and defend their new interpretation like saints, or should I say demons. Indeed some defending the Catholic bible and its interpretation on this thread are to be found REJECTING the Church’s interpretation on other threads.

Once these Catholics, from popes down, became Copernican interpreters of the bible they subjected all TRADITION interpretations to METAPHOR. In other words, they opened the Bible up to NEW interpretations as to what THEY THINK the writers meant, just like they now say a moving sun really MEANs a fixed sun. Then ALL of Genesis was taken over by Catholic EVOLUTIONISTS and their MAKEY-UPPY INTERPRETATIONS as they believe science dictates. And if the PAS comes up with something new like ALIENS the Catholic Bible will be found to support ALIENS.

So I agree, the SCRIPTURES are now USELESS as a means to confirm anything for Catholics. If they were wrong about the literal interpretations of Genesis and many other books where creation and geocentric statements are made, then who can guarantee the Church was NOT WRONG in many other places. As a matter of fact, Copernicanism has reduced the number of Catholic beliefs down to INFALLIBLE Statements and those alone, and the Copernicans even reserve the right to dictate what is infallible and what is not.

 

[John_one_one]

Just had a quick look through this interesting thread. My speciality is the Galileo case in which the Church of 1616 and 1633 interpreted the Scriptures as the Fathers did, geocentrically. Now the number of Catholics that now laugh at this idea number about 99.99999% of the flock. So what do the do, interpret it now in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION and defend their new interpretation like saints, or should I say demons. Indeed some defending the Catholic bible and its interpretation on this thread are to be found REJECTING the Church’s interpretation on other threads.

Once these Catholics, from popes down, became Copernican interpreters of the bible they subjected all TRADITION interpretations to METAPHOR. In other words, they opened the Bible up to NEW interpretations as to what THEY THINK the writers meant, just like they now say a moving sun really MEANs a fixed sun. Then ALL of Genesis was taken over by Catholic EVOLUTIONISTS and their MAKEY-UPPY INTERPRETATIONS as they believe science dictates. And if the PAS comes up with something new like ALIENS the Catholic Bible will be found to support ALIENS.

So I agree, the SCRIPTURES are now USELESS as a means to confirm anything for Catholics. If they were wrong about the literal interpretations of Genesis and many other books where creation and geocentric statements are made, then who can guarantee the Church was NOT WRONG in many other places. As a matter of fact, Copernicanism has reduced the number of Catholic beliefs down to INFALLIBLE Statements and those alone, and the Copernicans even reserve the right to dictate what is infallible and what is not.

I admire your frankness about my observation that the faith of catholics is not expressed in sola scripture. Your faith resides in the belief that the magistrate is the word of God.

So I agree, the SCRIPTURES are now USELESS as a means to confirm anything for Catholics.

I dont hold you in contempt, but as I said I admire your faith that you can truthfully come straight out and say it. We are all on a journey seeking the same end. Being truthful about our position an that path is critical.
Its simply impossible to read verses like the one below with the volume of testimony from the Apostles to justify the catholic church. As you have done catholics need to be frank about the bibles value and focus on what it is that they have faith in. We all know that the magistrate forbids clergy to marry. In all the endless writing in the CC Encyclopedia about this its clear and evident by the fact that forbidding to marry is just that, along with chastity. If you must observe chastity certainly you are forbidden to marry. All the flowery attempts to justify this biblically are just that attempts.

1 Timothy 4
The Great Apostasy
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

By stepping forward despite this warning, when invited to do so, and by co-operating in the rest of the ordination service, the candidate is understood to bind himself equivalently by a vow of chastity. He is henceforth unable to contract a valid marriage, and any serious transgression in the matter of this vow is not only a grievous sin in itself but incurs the additional guilt of sacrilege. newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm

 

[Religio71]

Chapter and verse for the Bible being the only thing you need for salvation.

 

[Rolltide]

We all know that the magistrate forbids clergy to marry. In all the endless writing in the CC Encyclopedia about this its clear and evident by the fact that forbidding to marry is just that, along with chastity. If you must observe chastity certainly you are forbidden to marry. All the flowery attempts to justify this biblically are just that attempts.

The institution of mandatory celibacy in the West is a discipline of the Catholic Church, NOT a doctrine. In other words, it can be changed at any time. The Catholic Church instituted this policy at the end of the Cluny Reform Movement, around 1100 AD. Until that time, Catholic priests who were not members of the orders were permitted to be married, as long as they did so before ordination. In fact, married priests were relatively common at the local level well into the Middle Ages. However, this rule was instituted to clean up the serious amount of corruption among the married clergy in the church. It was actually a REFORM measure. Simony and nepotism was rampant, with priests stealing from the collection plate to support the careers of their children. Many priests also stole funds to construct lavish homes for their families. Others families suffered an opposite fate, as priests were seldom at home. Because of a shortage of priests, they might have to say Mass in as many as 20 different towns across a region. They might only get home one or two days per month, and their families suffered. The church in the West instituted this rule in order to help clean up the church, and as a method to actually protect the family…

Now, that said… who ever said there aren’t any married Catholic priests? There ARE! The Eastern Catholic Church STILL permits married men to become priests. There are over 400 married Catholic priests in the US currently. Most of these are Eastern Catholic, but priests who were ministers in another faith and convert can appeal to the pope for a dispensation, even in the Latin rite! We have near my home a formerly Anglican minister who is now a married Catholic priest of the Western, Latin rite. This is a rule, NOT a doctrine, and can change at ANY time.

 

[rtconstant]

I admire your frankness about my observation that the faith of catholics is not expressed in sola scripture. Your faith resides in the belief that the magistrate is the word of God.

Well, I wouldn’t think that any Catholic would have ever claimed Sola Scriptura as that is a heresy that defeats itself. Catholic Faith resides in Christ and His promises. Our doctrine is derived from the Apostles and their appointed heirs, and is backed up by and reinforced by Sacred Scripture.

I dont hold you in contempt, but as I said I admire your faith that you can truthfully come straight out and say it. We are all on a journey seeking the same end. Being truthful about our position an that path is critical.

I’ve read some of the threads you’ve been involved in, and have yet to hear anyone being dishonest with you.

Its simply impossible to read verses like the one below with the volume of testimony from the Apostles to justify the catholic church.

Only impossible if you close your heart and mind to the Apostolic Faith.

As you have done catholics need to be frank about the bibles value

I’d say that our safe keeping of, codexing of, tireless copying of, and translating of the Scriptures speaks well to our value of it. Indeed you wouldn’t even have your abridged Protestant version of the Scriptures if not for the Catholic Church.

and focus on what it is that they have faith in.

Here you go:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.
Amen.

We all know that the magistrate forbids clergy to marry.

I’m not sure who this magistrate is but he’s not Catholic.

In all the endless writing in the CC Encyclopedia about this its clear and evident by the fact that forbidding to marry is just that, along with chastity. If you must observe chastity certainly you are forbidden to marry. All the flowery attempts to justify this biblically are just that attempts.

And yet there are many married people in the Church including clergy. So given that, who is it you think may be misunderstanding what they’re reading?

 

[tobinatorstark]

Well, I wouldn’t think that any Catholic would have ever claimed Sola Scriptura as that is a heresy that defeats itself. Catholic Faith resides in Christ and His promises. Our doctrine is derived from the Apostles and their appointed heirs, and is backed up by and reinforced by Sacred Scripture.

I’ve read some of the threads you’ve been involved in, and have yet to hear anyone being dishonest with you.

Only impossible if you close your heart and mind to the Apostolic Faith.

I’d say that our safe keeping of, codexing of, tireless copying of, and translating of the Scriptures speaks well to our value of it. Indeed you wouldn’t even have your abridged Protestant version of the Scriptures if not for the Catholic Church.

Here you go:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.
Amen.

I’m not sure who this magistrate is but he’s not Catholic.

And yet there are many married people in the Church including clergy. So given that, who is it you think may be misunderstanding what they’re reading?

 

[cassini]

I admire your frankness about my observation that the faith of catholics is not expressed in sola scripture. Your faith resides in the belief that the magistrate is the word of God.

I dont hold you in contempt, but as I said I admire your faith that you can truthfully come straight out and say it. We are all on a journey seeking the same end. Being truthful about our position an that path is critical.
Its simply impossible to read verses like the one below with the volume of testimony from the Apostles to justify the catholic church. As you have done catholics need to be frank about the bibles value and focus on what it is that they have faith in. We all know that the magistrate forbids clergy to marry. In all the endless writing in the CC Encyclopedia about this its clear and evident by the fact that forbidding to marry is just that, along with chastity. If you must observe chastity certainly you are forbidden to marry. All the flowery attempts to justify this biblically are just that attempts.

Hi John, just to let you know that I belong to the .00000001% who fully accepts the literal interppretation of Genesis where the Fathers read them literally, and that includes in a geocentric way. My post was - as you seem to have noticed - a shock tactic trying to shake the sceptics into realising what they (Copernicans) have done to the authority of the Bible within Catholicism these past centuries. Indeed, Pope Urban VIII warned that to accept an interpretation contrary to that of the unanimous Fathers would ‘put the Catholic Faith in danger.’ He was right.

I accept completely that the Bible is the word of God but that it is ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL that the interpretation of all passages be in line with Church interpretation in that only SHE has the authority to be able to interpret the Bible correctly. I attend the Tridentine Latin Mass and one of my favourite reads is the Biblical references to each Sunday as they occur throughout the year. Often there are multuple references from many differen books and I often marvel on the Church’s accumulation and endorcement of such meanings of passages. It is quite fascinating because one knows that before us within Catholicism every WORD of the Scriptures have been read and studied by the Fathers and saints before us.

Oh, I believe all priests should reflect the celebate unmarried state of CHRIST if they claim to be alter-Christs on earth. Indeed some years ago I read that celebacy has been the law right from the beginning, among those married as was the case with some Apostles. In time the Church ruled against the married state altogether. Proper order.

God bless.

 

[Rolltide]

Oh, I believe all priests should reflect the celebate unmarried state of CHRIST if they claim to be alter-Christs on earth. Indeed some years ago I read that celebacy has been the law right from the beginning, among those married as was the case with some Apostles. In time the Church ruled against the married state altogether. Proper order.

Again, remember that it has ALWAYS been permitted to have married priests in the Eastern Catholic Churches, and they are JUST as fully Catholic as the Latin branch…

 

[John_one_one]

Hi John, just to let you know that I belong to the .00000001% who fully accepts the literal interppretation of Genesis where the Fathers read them literally, and that includes in a geocentric way. My post was - as you seem to have noticed - a shock tactic trying to shake the sceptics into realising what they (Copernicans) have done to the authority of the Bible within Catholicism these past centuries. Indeed, Pope Urban VIII warned that to accept an interpretation contrary to that of the unanimous Fathers would ‘put the Catholic Faith in danger.’ He was right.

I accept completely that the Bible is the word of God but that it is ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL that the interpretation of all passages be in line with Church interpretation in that only SHE has the authority to be able to interpret the Bible correctly. I attend the Tridentine Latin Mass and one of my favourite reads is the Biblical references to each Sunday as they occur throughout the year. Often there are multuple references from many differen books and I often marvel on the Church’s accumulation and endorcement of such meanings of passages. It is quite fascinating because one knows that before us within Catholicism every WORD of the Scriptures have been read and studied by the Fathers and saints before us.

Oh, I believe all priests should reflect the celebate unmarried state of CHRIST if they claim to be alter-Christs on earth. Indeed some years ago I read that celebacy has been the law right from the beginning, among those married as was the case with some Apostles. In time the Church ruled against the married state altogether. Proper order.

God bless.

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
The best that can be said is is that God is just. He knows our hearts and thoughts.
The truth be known meaning and interpretation is a choice only for those who can not hear or see. Jesus spoke to multitudes of people some heard and understood, some did not. Should it be any different today?

‘ Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.

 

[wmscott]

Here you go:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.
Amen.

I guess it would be interesting to see Johnoneone’s take on this response.