The Vatican and the death penalty

[garysibio]

So only those who commit murder should be put to death?

How does that defend everyone’s right to life if an innocent person is run down by someone?

It is not my position that every murderer should be put to death. The only time I approve of the use of the death penalty is when a failure to do so can reasonably be expected to result in more death. In other words, the death penalty is justified when it will likely save lives.

The difference between murder and manslaughter is intent. In murder the individual sets out to kill his victim. He wants to kill the person.

Manslaughter is when there is no intent to kill the victim. It is either accidental or the individual is incapable of forming the prerequisite intent. Example: You go on a bridge crossing a highway and start dropping rocks over the side. One goes through John Smith’s car window and kills him. You didn’t even know John Smith so how could you have intended to kill him. However, your reckless act resulted in his death. This is considered manslaughter.

There are a lot of factors involved and I’ve overly simplified it. The Wikipoedia has a good explanation of it in their article on manslaughter.

Consider the Catholic Church’s teaching on mortal sin. The intent to commit the sin must be present for a sin to be considered mortal. The same thing is true of the legal definition of murder.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’m offering an opinion on the general use of the term ‘pro life’ when someone is also ‘pro death penalty’…thats not an attack.

It is an attack. And it’s offensive, uncharitable and against the rules. Please stop.

 

[krokal]

First, I believe that abortion an inherently immoral act and I would support any legal abolition of it. I feel the same way towards the death penalty even though the Church believes differently.

What I’m trying to do in this thread is state that in today’s day and age, and most especially in the United States, the death penalty is not an “absolute necessity”. I’m not trying to convince anyone here that the DP is always wrong, no matter what.

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Garysibio, you should stop using the term Moslem because some Muslims consider it offensive today, and its an outdated term. For you to say its not outdated simply because you use it is ridiculous. Your use the word is what’s outdated. If you continue to use the term, then whatever, that will say something about your wisdom and respect towards Muslims.

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When I said that you can’t execute someone based on what you think they might do, I am invoking the statement, “The ends don’t justify the means.” as per paragraph 1763 of the CCC. I’m saying that unless the execution is an “absolute neccesity” aka you know that the person will kill gain, the execution is an evil act. Likewise, you cannot execute someone based on what you think someone else might do.

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garysibio:

And what makes you think that locking someone up is ever going to make a better person out of them? The recidivism rate shows that they are completely unable to accomplish that task. When someone does something wrong you punish them so that they learn not to do it again. In some cases what they do is so hideous that the punishment must include removing them from society for the remainder of their natural lives. Prison as punishment also acts as a deterrent. If older brother tells younger brother how horrible prison is, younger brother is a lot less likely to do anything that will put him there. If older brother says “Prison isn’t that bad,” then the younger brother is more easily tempted to follow in older brother’s footsteps.

You completely missed my point, but whatev. I didn’t say that locking a person up would make a better person out of somebody, often times it either does absolute nothing to a person or makes them worse (in our prison system). If its a situation of whether or not to lock up a serial killer or execute him, I’d prefer the situation where he/she is allowed to remain an actual person as opposed to a corpse. Corpses, you see, have 0 chance of becoming a better person, but living people, ironically enough, still have some chance of bettering themselves.

The recidivism rate is the way it is because of precisely what I stated, that being that our prison-industrial complex is geared more towards vengeance than reconciliation.

In some cases what they do is so hideous that the punishment must include removing them from society for the remainder of their natural lives.

That isn’t what the catechism or the Church teaches.

 

[vern_humphrey]

What I’m trying to do in this thread is state that in today’s day and age, and most especially in the United States, the death penalty is not an “absolute necessity”. I’m not trying to convince anyone here that the DP is always wrong, no matter what.

And when you say “in today’s day and age” you’ve entered the realm of penology and experience.

The Catholic Church runs no prisons and has little experience in penology. The US Bureau of Prisons has a** lot** of experience. The USBP will point out that at one time there was no death penalty in this country – the Supreme Court had struck down all death penalty laws and no state or the Federal Government had managed to enact a law that would pass judicial muster.

The USBP can show you what happened in US prisons in those days – iincluding an incident in which prisoners in complete lock-down in the most secure prison in the country plotted and carried out the murder of two corrections officers by separate attacks on the same day!!

The USBP takes the position that when you deal on a daily basis with convicted murderers who are already serving life sentences without parole, you must have the death penalty in reserve, for the protection of the correction officers.

 

[krokal]

And when you say “in today’s day and age” you’ve entered the realm of penology and experience.

The Catholic Church runs no prisons and has little experience in penology. The US Bureau of Prisons has a** lot** of experience. The USBP will point out that at one time there was no death penalty in this country – the Supreme Court had struck down all death penalty laws and no state or the Federal Government had managed to enact a law that would pass judicial muster.

The USBP can show you what happened in US prisons in those days – iincluding an incident in which prisoners in complete lock-down in the most secure prison in the country plotted and carried out the murder of two corrections officers by separate attacks on the same day!!

The USBP takes the position that when you deal on a daily basis with convicted murderers who are already serving life sentences without parole, you must have the death penalty in reserve, for the protection of the correction officers.

First off, why exactly are you letting the USBP guide you in moral principles and not the Church? Just because the USBP has certain beliefs regarding the death penalty, that doesn’t mean they’re taking the correct moral position.

Secondly, I don’t think either you or I can specifically state the motives of the inmates who killed the guards that day, their specific motives, and their state of mind. I would really like to see an article or two that details the events.

The death penalty doesn’t really work as a deterrent, contrary to popular belief.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/i/homiciderates.gif

A September 2000 New York Times survey found that during the last 20 years, the homicide rate in states with the death penalty has been 48 to 101 percent higher than in states without the death penalty.

-Amnesty International

 

[bones_IV]

OK then…those who would be pro-death penalty are practicing a form of partial-pro-life

Frommi, this has gone far enough! I demand that you stop right there.

 

[krokal]

How exactly has he gone too far?

 

[emile]

I support the death penalty. We need an ultimate punishment for horrendous crimes. God believed in the death penalty by sending his only son to die on the cross. If it’s good enough for my Lord then who are we to change the system. The catholic church even has major holy days centred around the death penalty. In New Zealand it costs approxiamately $50 to 70,000 ayear to keep a person in jail on a life sentence which is 9 to 14 years. We could use that money to keep millions of starving children alive in African countries, but no the crazy do gooders would rather keep one murderous person alive in jail.

 

[Peregrino]

I am with Frommi.

Everytime I see one of those “you can’t be pro-choice and catholic” bumper stickers I think about the death penalty and scratch my head. Apparently we are allowed the choice to disagree on whether killing another human being is acceptable in DP cases.

Pro-life and pro-DEATH penalty seems to be a contradiction in terms.

Something about “thou shalt not kill” comes across as pretty unambiguous to me. The DP, however you want to nuance it is killing, plain and simple.

 

[system]

OK then…those who would be pro-death penalty are practicing a form of partial-pro-life

It is an attack. And it’s offensive, uncharitable and against the rules. Please stop.

Frommi, this has gone far enough! I demand that you stop right there.

How exactly has he gone too far?

I am with Frommi.

Everytime I see one of those “you can’t be pro-choice and catholic” bumper stickers I think about the death penalty and scratch my head. Apparently we are allowed the choice to disagree on whether killing another human being is acceptable in DP cases.

Pro-life and pro-DEATH penalty seems to be a contradiction in terms.

Something about “thou shalt not kill” comes across as pretty unambiguous to me. The DP, however you want to nuance it is killing, plain and simple.

I’ve been following as closely as I can, not knowing enough on either “penology” or my church’s chatechism to say anything, but I have to say that the remarks above clearly demonstrate that there is no agreement on what the term “Pro-Life” means. It seems that people against the death penalty claimed to be pro-life (for one obvious reason) and people for the death penalty claimed to be pro-life on the theory that the criminal’s death would save other people (future victims).

I think that second line of reasoning is a stretch, but that’s just opinion. For what it’s worth, I can’t see justifying the death penalty at all

 

[krokal]

I support the death penalty. We need an ultimate punishment for horrendous crimes. God believed in the death penalty by sending his only son to die on the cross. If it’s good enough for my Lord then who are we to change the system. The catholic church even has major holy days centred around the death penalty. In New Zealand it costs approxiamately $50 to 70,000 ayear to keep a person in jail on a life sentence which is 9 to 14 years. We could use that money to keep millions of starving children alive in African countries, but no the crazy do gooders would rather keep one murderous person alive in jail.

That’s undoubtedly the most ridiculous post I’ve ever read on these forums.

Why exactly do we need the “ultimate punishment for horrendous crimes”?

You’re justifying the death penalty based on the fact that Jesus was killed by the Romans? Are you aware that St. Peter and St. Paul were also put to death? Is that cool too? Your logic for the support of the death penalty is absolutely absurd. Reason and rationality are your friends.

What holidays are you talking about?

In America, it costs millions of dollars for a capital punishment case when analysis, appeals, and court time all factor in. It is much cheaper to house an inmate for life. I think it was Florida that spends about $24,000,000 per execution when everything is said and done. Check the Palm Beach Post, January 4, 2000.

Couldn’t we save more starving African children if we just put murders in jail instead of killing them?

What’s a crazy do gooder, by the way? Jesus did a lot of good, is he a crazy do gooder?

 

[garysibio]

That isn’t what the catechism or the Church teaches.

Krokal,

re: use of Moslem

I was being sarcastic. I get that way when people go all PC on me. I happen to live in a neighborhood with quite a few Moslems and they don’t seem to mind the term.

re: ends don’t justify the means

I agree, if the means are inherently immoral. According to the teachings of the Catholic Church, whether you agree with them or not, the death penalty is not inherently immoral.

Keep in mind that the people I’m talking about have, by their actions, forfeited the right to live with the rest of us. They have committed crimes so hideous that they deserve to die. We can choose to be merciful if we wish but that would be foolish if their continued life could reasonably lead to the death of others.

re: the prison system and recidivism

The only way to change a person’s heart for the better is through the grace of Jesus Christ. Your statement that our current penal system is based on vengeance tells me that you know absolutely nothing about what is going on there. Prisoners have access to cable TV, gyms with expensive workout equipment, law libraries and a multitude of other perks. If that is vengeance, I wish someone would get vengeful to me.

And when I said that some people have committed crimes that necessitate their permanent removal from society I said I was talking about life imprisonment without parole. Are you trying to tell me that the CCC doesn’t allow for that either?

 

[garysibio]

The death penalty doesn’t really work as a deterrent, contrary to popular belief.

Sure it is. No one who has had the death penalty carried out on him has ever committed another crime. Good enough for me.

 

[krokal]

re: the last part

I wasn’t aware that’s want you meant. Of course the CCC allows for life imprisonment, and it also allows for the death penalty, but only in certain circumstances. My point, once again, is that in the United States the death penalty it is not an “absolute necessity” .

 

[krokal]

Sure it is. No one who has had the death penalty carried out on him has ever committed another crime. Good enough for me.

A bit sadistic, don’t you think? It may be good enough for you, but it doesn’t seem to be good enough for the Church.

 

[garysibio]

I support the death penalty. We need an ultimate punishment for horrendous crimes. God believed in the death penalty by sending his only son to die on the cross.

I don’t know that I would particularly go with that argument, I’d have to think about it more. However, while He was on the cross, Jesus didn’t say anything about the fact that two other people were being executed with Him. That would have been the perfect opportunity to condemn capital punishment if He thought it was immoral.

 

[garysibio]

I am with Frommi.

Everytime I see one of those “you can’t be pro-choice and catholic” bumper stickers I think about the death penalty and scratch my head. Apparently we are allowed the choice to disagree on whether killing another human being is acceptable in DP cases.

Pro-life and pro-DEATH penalty seems to be a contradiction in terms.

Something about “thou shalt not kill” comes across as pretty unambiguous to me. The DP, however you want to nuance it is killing, plain and simple.

You’ll have to take that up with the pope. While he was still the Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith he said (paraphrase) that it is permitted to disagree with the pope’s comments on just war and capital punishment but not abortion and euthanasia. The exact quote appears several times early on in this thread.

“Thou shalt not kill” is a mistranslation. It should read “Thou shalt not murder” and capital punishment is not murder. It is also permitted according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[garysibio]

re: the last part

I wasn’t aware that’s want you meant. Of course the CCC allows for life imprisonment, and it also allows for the death penalty, but only in certain circumstances. My point, once again, is that in the United States the death penalty it is not an “absolute necessity” .

And my point is that there are cases where it is. I gave examples earlier although only the case of the California gang member was American. At any rate, you can’t just limit the argument to America. If something is immoral in America it’s immoral in Great Britain, Russia or Iran. If something is moral in America, it’s moral in Great Britain, Russia or Iran.

 

[garysibio]

A bit sadistic, don’t you think? It may be good enough for you, but it doesn’t seem to be good enough for the Church.

Time for a reality check. I’m the one - actually, one of the ones - who is professing beliefs in line with the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on the subject of capital punishment. You are denying the Church’s teachings when you say that the death penalty can never be used.

 

[krokal]

You’re mistaken.