The Vatican and the death penalty

[system]

Not many would equate the death of a convicted killer with the death of the guaranteed innocent.

Well then, being pro-life is a piece of cake!

It’s easy to be pro-life when it is an innocent unborn child. It’s not so easy to be pro-life when it’s someone like Saddam, Charlie Manson, or Osama Bin Laden. But isn’t that what we are called to as followers of Christ? The man who said love and pray for your enemies? It’s a piece of cake to pray for your family and friends; not so much the bozo who aggrevates you.

G.K Chesterton once said the same of the virtues. It’s no virtue to display hope when there IS hope; but only when it is hopeless.

Our faith calls for tough choices and demonstrations.
Isn’t that approach called for here?

 

[Brad]

Well then, being pro-life is a piece of cake!

It’s easy to be pro-life when it is an innocent unborn child. It’s not so easy to be pro-life when it’s someone like Saddam, Charlie Manson, or Osama Bin Laden. But isn’t that what we are called to as followers of Christ? The man who said love and pray for your enemies? It’s a piece of cake to pray for your family and friends; not so much the bozo who aggrevates you.

G.K Chesterton once said the same of the virtues. It’s no virtue to display hope when there IS hope; but only when it is hopeless.

Our faith calls for tough choices and demonstrations.
Isn’t that approach called for here?

If it were so easy to be pro-life with the unborn child, then why do we so casually allow thousands of them to be murdered daily while we sip our morning coffee? It must not be as easy as you suggest.

On the contrary, it is easier to defend the life of the known and the popular thatn the unknown and the unpopular.

Again, I challenge you to rethink what justice is. Just above, you equate Sadaam, Manson, and Bin Laden with “the bozo that aggrevates you”.

I’d say being cemented into a wall alive and left to suffocate and die would be a bit aggrevating but Sadaam considered it entertainment. Is he a bozo or a killer of hundreds of thousands. What is a just punishment for this man?

Loving and praying for your enemies does not mean witholding justice from them. When one kills, he invokes a just response by the very action.

Being just is tough. Shirking responsibility is easy.

 

[estesbob]

Are you saying everyone in the pro-life movement is OK with the death penalty?

No-But many are. There is no contradiction-especially from a Catholic Perspective.

I also, BTW, work to end the Death Penatly. But people like Frommi hurt the cause-both of those who try and end abortion and those who try to end capital punishment. By twisitng Catholic teaching to support his own political agenda he slimes those who work for life-he’s no different than NARL and Planned parenthood-he helps their cause. I suspect that was his intention all along…

 

[Peregrino]

I just can’t see Jesus supporting the death penalty…

The adulterous woman committed a sin/crime punishable by death. Jesus illustrated that we should forgive, not condemn because of our individual sinfulness.

Are we not called to imitate Christ?

Romans 13:10 “Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law”. Does the catechism fall short of this standard?

 

[system]

Again, I challenge you to rethink what justice is. Just above, you equate Sadaam, Manson, and Bin Laden with “the bozo that aggrevates you”.
.

Nope, I didn’t.

Poor writing on my part if those two ideas, the death penalty and Christ’s Command to pray for enemies, were close enough to be confused.

 

[Brad]

Nope, I didn’t.

Poor writing on my part if those two ideas, the death penalty and Christ’s Command to pray for enemies, were close enough to be confused.

I don’t think your writing was poor. I know what you were saying. I was just trying to point out that their is a huge difference in praying for the bozo and opposing the death penalty in all cases. The former is unquestionable while the latter takes deep thought, prayer, and scrupulous consideration in each and every case.

 

[frommi]

No-But many are. There is no contradiction-especially from a Catholic Perspective.

I also, BTW, work to end the Death Penatly. But people like Frommi hurt the cause-both of those who try and end abortion and those who try to end capital punishment. By twisitng Catholic teaching to support his own political agenda he slimes those who work for life-he’s no different than NARL and Planned parenthood-he helps their cause. I suspect that was his intention all along…

What agenda do you think I have here?

All I said is that philosophically you can’t seize the high ground of being ‘pro-life’ when you are not in each and every case involving a life being at stake ‘pro-life’.

It’s a highly chraged and misused term.

I am not sliming anyone…I’m saying we should just make sure that we are very clear about their restricted beliefs around the issue of who lives and who dies.

 

[system]

I don’t think your writing was poor. I know what you were saying. I was just trying to point out that their is a huge difference in praying for the bozo and opposing the death penalty in all cases. The former is unquestionable while the latter takes deep thought, prayer, and scrupulous consideration in each and every case.

I still think I was unclear.

I was trying to point out that the saviour I’m trying to follow has called me to go AGAINST my own fallen nature, my own urge to strike back, and take the high road no matter how opposite that seems. Nowhere am I saying justice should not be done, but it does seem to me that the death penalty is vengeance unleashed.

I could be wrong, because my solution to the horrendous criminal acts could be considered cruel and unusual by the constitution, as well as my church. (that being life of hard labor) The up side being, they have a chance for the salvation/redemption of their immortal soul; a chance stolen by the death penalty.

 

[Adonis33]

I still think I was unclear.

I was trying to point out that the saviour I’m trying to follow has called me to go AGAINST my own fallen nature, my own urge to strike back, and take the high road no matter how opposite that seems. Nowhere am I saying justice should not be done, but it does seem to me that the death penalty is vengeance unleashed.

I could be wrong, because my solution to the horrendous criminal acts could be considered cruel and unusual by the constitution, as well as my church. (that being life of hard labor) The up side being, they have a chance for the salvation/redemption of their immortal soul; a chance stolen by the death penalty.

I would think that it is more likely a convicted felon would repent due to their imending execution rather than if they recieved life in prison. Nothing brings a human being closer to God more than impending death.

We had an execution about a month age - somebody killed a San Antonio police officer. Before he (Jonathan Moore) was executed - he apologized to the widow, and made a statement recognizing the wrong he had commited.

Would he have been as contrite if he recieved a lighter sentence. I don’t know, but I am pretty convinced that knowing that his life was soon over - increased his sence of urgency to make things right with God before he died.

Just my opinion.

 

[InTheWilderness]

I think those who think the death penalty is always wrong, or who always oppose it, are distorting the teaching of the Church in some cases. While being pro-life is a good thing in most cases, it can turn into a belief warping absolutist ideology. Being pro-life is not a fundamental teaching of the Church, but the teachings of the Church are fundamentally pro-life, in its truest sense.

On the other hand, those who have few objections to the death penalty, are probably making an incorrect prudential judgment. However, the very nature of prudential judgment is such that some difference of opinion on application is quite natural.

While it is probably better to err on the side of mercy, this does not mean that we can twist the Church’s teachings in any way we wish.

In a certain sense, it is a worse thing to mutilate the teachings of the Church than it is to incorrectly apply them.

 

[krokal]

I would think that it is more likely a convicted felon would repent due to their imending execution rather than if they recieved life in prison. Nothing brings a human being closer to God more than impending death.

We had an execution about a month age - somebody killed a San Antonio police officer. Before he (Jonathan Moore) was executed - he apologized to the widow, and made a statement recognizing the wrong he had commited.

Would he have been as contrite if he recieved a lighter sentence. I don’t know, but I am pretty convinced that knowing that his life was soon over - increased his sence of urgency to make things right with God before he died.

Just my opinion.

So you think we should try and convert sinners by scaring the **** out of them? That’s totally backwards.

And yes, Vern, I’m up for the questions assuming they’re not loaded ones.

 

[Titus]

I would think that it is more likely a convicted felon would repent due to their imending execution rather than if they recieved life in prison. Nothing brings a human being closer to God more than impending death.

We had an execution about a month age - somebody killed a San Antonio police officer. Before he (Jonathan Moore) was executed - he apologized to the widow, and made a statement recognizing the wrong he had commited.

I don’t think this is an argument for execution. It removes the Christian concept of forgiveness and is irrevocable. But this man was truly sorry, and deserved forgiveness, surely?

 

[system]

Would he have been as contrite if he recieved a lighter sentence…

Well, I’m one of those with the opinion that 30 or 40 years of breaking big rocks into small rocks is actually worse than death.

I remember GW Bush in the 2000 debates answering a question about this, he said something, like, “well down in Texas, we execute them, can’t punish them any worse than that.”

I think he’s wrong on that. He’s right about it being “final” buts that’s about it.

To me, the bottom line is what you think Christ stood for. I have to ask myself, “if Christ was here today, would he support the death penalty?” and I keep getting a “NO” and no one’s argument has yet convinced me that he would be for it. In fact, he interrupted an execution by stoning as someone pointed out earlier.

 

[system]

I was trying to point out that the saviour I’m trying to follow has called me to go AGAINST my own fallen nature, my own urge to strike back, and take the high road no matter how opposite that seems. Nowhere am I saying justice should not be done, but it does seem to me that the death penalty is vengeance unleashed.

Today’s reading! That’s what I was talking about!

(yes, it takes me a while to get all cylinders firing)

 

[Adonis33]

I don’t think this is an argument for execution. It removes the Christian concept of forgiveness and is irrevocable. But this man was truly sorry, and deserved forgiveness, surely?

I wasn’t using it as an arguement for execution. I was answering another post.

 

[Adonis33]

So you think we should try and convert sinners by scaring the **** out of them? That’s totally backwards.

And yes, Vern, I’m up for the questions assuming they’re not loaded ones.

You missed the point of my post. I was responding to this:

"The up side being, they have a chance for the salvation/redemption of their immortal soul; a chance stolen by the death penalty."

I’m wondering how many instances there are of somebody saving their souls with long sentences.

Don’t misrepresent what I am saying.

 

[vern_humphrey]

So you think we should try and convert sinners by scaring the **** out of them? That’s totally backwards.

And yes, Vern, I’m up for the questions assuming they’re not loaded ones.

Not loaded at all. Here it is:

A Short Lesson In Penology

This lesson is a much-abbreviated version of one of a series developed for a prison system. Under the terms of the contract, all scenarios and situations had to be real life – that is, with a firm recent historical basis.

I offer this as an insight to what running a prison is like and to form a basis for understanding how safe a prison can be, and how well a prison system can protect society.

Remember, this is based on a real incident.

Situation: You are warden of a prison. You have learned that an inmate, who has been convicted of multiple murders and large-scale drug dealing has just given a photograph to a Corrections Officer. The photo shows the Corrections Officer’s six-year old daughter playing in the back yard.

1. What is your assessment of this incident? (What is its meaning and implication for you?)

1. What should you do about it?

1. Evaluate the security situation in your prison.

 

[krokal]

Situation: You are warden of a prison. You have learned that an inmate, who has been convicted of multiple murders and large-scale drug dealing has just given a photograph to a Corrections Officer. The photo shows the Corrections Officer’s six-year old daughter playing in the back yard.

Hurray for ticking time bomb questions, but whatev, I’ll play along.

1. What is your assessment of this incident? (What is its meaning and implication for you?)

This incident represents breach in security. It means I as the warden didn’t put proper restrictions on an inmate with an nasty history and I failed to protect my guards and their personal life.

1. What should you do about it?

Immediately I would put a security detail on the guard’s family (or have the FBI/police do it).

Then I would go through all the mail, telephone, and personal communication that I could, and follow up on possible leads. I would launch a full (and loud) investigation into where the inmate got the photo and from whom. This large drug dealer was probably under surveillance before he got arrested, so the local police would have some idea of who could be working with him on the outside. The drug dealer would be put in solitary or near solitary until the case is solved.

1. Evaluate the security situation in your prison.

Standards and/or the implementation of security standards need to be evaluated. All incoming/outgoing mail, telephone conversations and visits should be monitored closely. Life-prisoners should not socialize with those who are only in for a few months or years that could possibly deliver a message to the outside. The prisoner shouldn’t have know the guard’s name, so I would develop a system of anonymity with staff who interact with the inmates. (like fake names)

 

[Titus]

Hurray for ticking time bomb questions, but whatev, I’ll play along.

It seems like you would make a good warden.

However this question does not support the death penalty (not sure if it was intended to) as gang associates will often make revenge murders on policemen, etc. after the execution of their friend.

 

[pnewton]

“To you who hear I say,
love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
To the person who strikes you on one cheek,
offer the other one as well,
and from the person who takes your cloak,
do not withhold even your tunic."

This verse does not apply to society our governements. If you were carry out the application of this verse to its logical absurdity, as relating to government, then courts would punish no one, even with fines. Instead we would reward criminals, the enemies of society.

Do you use this verse to propose that no one is ever punished for crime? If not, then it is meaningless in the context of this discussion and amounts to proof-texting.