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exoflare
Guest
It doesn’t. I’m only referring to the issue Ihagan brought up… the apparent contradiction is due to the fallacy covered in the link.
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justinthemartyr
Guest
the Trinity remains a mystery, something which we will never stop understanding. I believe as we grow closer to our Lord in sanctification, the deeper our undersatanding is of God Himself, but something that can never be truly realized, just as we cannot fully understand the workings of the eyeball and the brain.
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exoflare
Guest
The Trinity can be understood a lot more clearly than most people realize. Read Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity. This widespread notion that we should just never attempt to understand the Trinity at all is one of the most needless and maddening obstacles to our faith.
EDIT: Justin, I’m not saying you are trying to “just give up” but the link I posted really does apply.
EDIT: Justin, I’m not saying you are trying to “just give up” but the link I posted really does apply.
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lhagan
Guest
How is questioning ones intelligence going to make him understand your religion?
Jews would say the Trinity is man trying to understand what can’t be understood. jewfaq.org/index.htm
There is no question that they worship the same God since their people bought you your religion.
Therefore, it is not a needless and maddening obstacle. It still has to be addressed for the seeker of truth.
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exoflare
Guest
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Alexius
Guest
Well, he isn’t…The three persons of the Trinity are distinguished only in their “origin.” The Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten [from the Father] and the Spirit proceeds [from the Father]. The Father is the “arche” or monarch of the Trinity. The Son is incarnate in Christ. The Spirit is sent…Let me put it as simply as possible. I have heard many Trinity analogies and I do think any are right. I’ll use a problematic one and correct it. God is similar to water. Water can be heated to make steam or cooled to make ice. Yet all three are the same substance. The problem is that God does not work like this. This is modalism and comes down to professing one person rather than three. Instead, God exsists as water, ice and steam at the same time from before the foundation of earth without any one ending. God does not function in states, so that one ends and another begins (and hence God the Father is basically crucified and Christ is talking to Himself in His prayers)…I know it sounds weird, but that is how I understand Him. This analogy is still borderline Modalist (because water, steam and ice are “states”), but it is the best analogy I could think of. If I am incorrect on this, someone please correct me…
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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lhagan
Guest
fallacy
noun
a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning
Somebody preaching in incorrectness wouldn’t be that intelligent. Finding correctness is intelligence.
Do you even read what you say?
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Alexius
Guest
You misread his post. He said: “This widespread notion that we should just never attempt to understand the Trinity at all is one of the most needless and maddening obstacles to our faith.” This is not directed at you personally, but at those who make it difficult for someone like you to understand the faith by saying that the Trinity can’t be explained…He made this clear in his first sentence: **"The Trinity can be understood a lot more clearly than most people realize." He then recommended a book to help you understand the Trinity better…Obviously you do not understand the Trinity and that is why you are inquiring about it, but no on is attacking you…
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lhagan
Guest
For him to be talking to himself he has to be in two places at once. So, how is thinking Jesus is only a part of God flawed?Well, he isn’t…The three persons of the Trinity are distinguished only in their “origin.” The Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten [from the Father] and the Spirit proceeds [from the Father]. The Father is the “arche” or monarch of the Trinity. The Son is incarnate in Christ. The Spirit is sent…Let me put it as simply as possible. I have heard many Trinity analogies and I do think any are right. I’ll use a problematic one and correct it. God is similar to water. Water can be heated to make steam or cooled to make ice. Yet all three are the same substance. The problem is that God does not work like this. This is modalism and comes down to professing one person rather than three. Instead, God exsists as water, ice and steam at the same time from before the foundation of earth without any one ending. God does not function in states, so that one ends and another begins (and hence God the Father is basically crucified and Christ is talking to Himself in His prayers)…I know it sounds weird, but that is how I understand Him. This analogy is still borderline Modalist (because water, steam and ice are “states”), but it is the best analogy I could think of. If I am incorrect on this, someone please correct me…
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
For an example: what if God was 75% in Heaven or where ever he lives and 25% in Jesus. Or, something similar.
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Alexius
Guest
Well, I’m saying that He (Jesus) is not talking to Himself. He is talking to the Father. Jesus is God the Son incarnate, the Second Person of the Trinity. When Jesus prays, He is praying to God the Father. There has to be a distinction between “persons” or else this dialogue between Jesus and the Father does not make sense. For Modalists, God the Father was the OT “mode” of God, the Son is the Gospels “mode” (i.e. Christ) and the Holy Spirit is the present day “mode.” If we use this logic, then God as a whole, died on the cross. That would mean that for three days, God was absent. I can only imagine the amount of issues that brings…In a sense, you are correct. God is in two places at once: in Heaven and in Christ. In another; however, your statement lacks clarity, so I can only presume to know what you mean.
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lhagan
Guest
God is suppose to be the sustainer of life…God can never be absent.
My statement was completely clear.
If you agree God was in two places at once then an absence contradicts.
And, if there are three modes then only one mode died on the cross.
All I’m getting here is that Jesus is a third of the Trinity and God is the entire Trinity. Meaning Jesus is only a third of God, not all of God.
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Alexius
Guest
Well, first there are not three “modes.” my point is that that is wrong. Second, each “person” (not mode) is fully God, yet at the same time is one in three. The same goes for each of the other two persons. I know how confusing and illogical this may seem, but I encourage you to hang in there and try to understand this. Pray and contemplate it. Read the Early Church Fathers. I will try to find a way to explain this to you in a clearer way, but I am not an expert on this issue…
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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lhagan
Guest
Okay, they are thirds but each one brings the other two with them?Well, first there are not three “modes.” my point is that that is wrong. Second, each “person” (not mode) is fully God, yet at the same time is one in three. The same goes for each of the other two persons. I know how confusing and illogical this may seem, but I encourage you to hang in there and try to understand this. Pray and contemplate it. Read the Early Church Fathers. I will try to find a way to explain this to you in a clearer way, but I am not an expert on this issue…
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
God and the Holy spirit are inside of Jesus. Jesus and the Holy spirit are inside of God. God and Jesus are inside of the Holy spirit. Is this correct?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
It’s flawed because God is Spirit - so, God is not material & not quantitative. An apple can be divided into parts because it is a material object; a spirit cannot be - let alone God Who is Spirit. Our ideas & thoughts are not material - they can’t be divided into parts like an apple either. Which is why they can’t be reckoned in percentages - & neither can God. Which is why God is not localised; to be localised, one needs to be or have a material body; we have them, so we are localised.
Jesus is the Word of God Who took on Himself a human nature to become a man like us in all things (apart from sin). This does not mean the Divine Nature of the Divine Persons stops being Spirit - it means that our created nature is ennobled tjrough its being taken into a Divine Person that He may be among us as the God-man Jesus of Nazareth. The Divine Nature common to the Father, the Word, & the Spirit is unchangeable - only the Incarnate Word can change, & only because He took a nature (ours) that was subject to change; the Word Himself is God Who is changeless
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lhagan
Guest
Thank you,can you answer the question that followed that one?
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Alexius
Guest
You’re getting warmer
In a sense, again, you are correct on the three persons being one, yet they are still distinct in Who they are. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father. This is so because of their existence. All are uncreated. All has the same essence/nature. All are one being/God. What is God? God is one. Who is God? God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God is undivided in essence, yet distinct in His persons. The Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten of the Father and the Spirit proceeds from the Father. I know how difficult a concept this is and I credit you for trying to understand it. Most people don’t try (even some Christians). I am trying to do the best I can, but this is not an easy concept to grasp or explain. That is not to say that one can’t understand it, but the fact is that God is outside of time and space. Just that fact alone makes it difficult to speak of God…
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lhagan
Guest
Now, which one should a Christian address their prays to? God or Jesus? or does it matter ?You’re getting warmer
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Alexius
Guest
Well, since God is one, you can simply pray to God without specifying which “person” of the Trinity. I usually pray to God and ask the intercession of Christ and the saints and then make the Sign of the Cross (in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.). Ultimately, God is one being, so whether you pray to the Father, Son or Spirit, God hears your prayers. Here is a diagram of the Latin concept of the Trinity:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bc/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.png
Ultimately, as an Easterner, I would turn the triangle so that the Father was on top and Son and Spirit come from Him…
Please, if you still need clarification, tell me/us. I don’t mind at all and I’m sure others won’t…
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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paarsurrey
Guest
HiWell, since God is one, you can simply pray to God without specifying which “person” of the Trinity. I usually pray to God and ask the intercession of Christ and the saints and then make the Sign of the Cross (in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.). Ultimately, God is one being, so whether you pray to the Father, Son or Spirit, God hears your prayers. Here is a diagram of the Latin concept of the Trinity:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bc/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.png
Ultimately, as an Easterner, I would turn the triangle so that the Father was on top and Son and Spirit come from Him…
Please, if you still need clarification, tell me/us. I don’t mind at all and I’m sure others won’t…
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
I am an Ahmadi a peaceful Muslim, although we believe in our fathers, mothers, truthful Jesus and Mary and other ProphestMessengers and saints but we don’t worship them at all nor we believe that anybody amongs thems is our intercessor. We don’t need an intercessor as our GodAllahYHWH hears and responds our prayers directly and our belief in Him is complete.
I respect you religion.
To sum up our belief I quote from Quran:
] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[112:2] Say 'He is Allah, the One!
[112:3] Allah the Independent and Besought of all.
[112:4] 'He begets not, nor, is He begotten,
[112:5] And there is none like unto Him.
[1:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful
[1:2] All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3] The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:4] Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5] Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:6] Guide us in the right path –
[1:7] The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.
Unqoute
Thanks
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justinthemartyr
Guest
we serve a personal God who loves us dearly, more than we can ever imagine and He is our Father, personal to us. He loves us so much that He sent His only begotten Son to die for us. Yes, our God died for us, so that we could have eternal life. would your muslim god die for you, does he love you that much?
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