The Virgin Mary

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1 Samuel 28: 3
Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. Saul had expelled the mediums and the wizards from the land. The Phillistines assembled and came and encamped at Shunem. Saul gathered all Israel, and they encamped at Gilboa. When Saul saw the army of the Phillistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. WHen Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, not by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets. Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, so that I may go to her and inquire of her.” His servants said to him, “there is a medium at Endor.”
So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes and went there; he and two men with him. They came to the woman by night. And he said, “Consult a spirit for me, and bring up for me the one whom I name to you.” The woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the wizards from the land. Why then are you laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?” But Saul sowre to her by the Lord, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He answered, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice and the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!” The king said to her, “Have no fear: what do you see?” The woman said to Saul, “I see a divine being come up out of the ground.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” She said, “An old man is coming up; he is wrapped in a robe”. So Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obesance.

Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress for the PHillistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams, so I have summoned you to tell me what I should do.” Samuel said, “Why then to you ask me, since the Lord has turned from you and become your enemy? The Lord has done to you just as he spoke by me, for the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor David. Because he did not obey the voice of the Lord, and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you today. Moreover, the Lord will give Israel along with you into the hands of the Phillistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me, the Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Phillistines.”

Thus, not only do we see an afterlife, we see that Samuel is not only aware of what is doing on but foretells what will occur. Since Christ has not yet opened the gates of heaven, Saul and his sons (the one repentent, the others innocent) will join Samuel after death.
 
I assume you are talking about King Saul. What good came to him of committing this additional sin?
 
Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Acts 16:16 16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.

(Deut. 18:10-12; Lev. 20:27).
 
justasking4 said:
You are making assumptions about heaven and the nature of souls that are there. You don’t know if there is space or time in heaven for example. No on does. The scriptures are silent about these things. However, it has not stopped the catholic church to use speculations about these matters to rest its doctrines on in regards to Mary and the saints.
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I’m not speculating. Peter said a thousand years for God is like a day. He created time and space. I don’t think heaven is made of matter as we preceived in this world. It cannot be properly describe. The Scripture only give hints about it.

I’m pretty sure heaven is beyond our comprehension, my Non-Catholic Christian friend. The world we live in is material world and compare that to the spiritual realm, heaven, and hell. In this life, our minds are limited.

I like to point out several points. Can you truly understand how can God be Three Persons but One God? Our human intellect can’t. We have to put our faith in this belief because we cannot properly understand it in its fullness.
 
Ginger2 said:
Quote: “the prophet Samuel who was dead fortold of a future of event when a king ask for his advise. It is apparent Samuel know something we did not know.”

Seeking advice from those who have past on is strictly forbidden.

Can you please cite the verse you are referring to. I believe you are mistaken of the text.
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That is the correct verse. While I like to advocate that the Catholic Church **does not condone **divination or necromancy of any sort. The passage does it VERY clear that Samuel know something about the future of Israel.
 
Ginger2 said:
…Samuel knew something about the future…

Acts 16:16-20
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16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain girl, having a pythonical spirit, met us, who brought to her masters much gain by divining. 17 This same following Paul and us, cried out, saying: These men are the servants of the most high God, who preach unto you the way of salvation. 18 And this she did many days. But Paul being grieved, turned, and said to the spirit: I command thee, in the name of Jesus Christ, to go out from her. And he went out the same hour. 19 But her masters, seeing that the hope of their gain was gone, apprehending Paul and Silas, brought them into the marketplace to the rulers. 20 And presenting them to the magistrates, they said: These men disturb our city, being Jews;

I read that passage and your point is? I had told you that the Catholic Church forbid divination, fortune telling, necromancy, etc.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Divination and magic

2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

**2117 **All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
I’m not speculating. Peter said a thousand years for God is like a day. He created time and space. I don’t think heaven is made of matter as we preceived in this world. It cannot be properly describe. The Scripture only give hints about it.

I’m pretty sure heaven is beyond our comprehension, my Non-Catholic Christian friend. The world we live in is material world and compare that to the spiritual realm, heaven, and hell. In this life, our minds are limited.

I like to point out several points. Can you truly understand how can God be Three Persons but One God? Our human intellect can’t. We have to put our faith in this belief because we cannot properly understand it in its fullness.
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I agree with much you write here. We do wonder about the after life and such. However, i do have a problem when the catholic church makes doctrines out of these speculations and demand that catholics believe them as facts.
 
justasking4 said:
I agree with much you write here. We do wonder about the after life and such. However, i do have a problem when the catholic church makes doctrines out of these speculations and demand that catholics believe them as facts.
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Atheist made the same claim as you do about Catholic doctrine. They will assert, you are only speculating if heaven or God even exist because the Bible is man made. It’s just all speculation.

They believe them because they are revealed truths, which the Holy Spirit guide the Church for over 2,000 years. These Marian doctrines are not made up. They have been handed down to us from the Apostles, down to their sucessors. I also trust Jesus promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church. I would be a fool to think that he broke his promise to his beloved Church.
 
Quote: “The saints, …with God’s help can be granted certains gifts. The prophet Samuel who was dead fortold of a future of event when a king ask for his advise. It is apparent Samuel know something we did not know.”

What was your point? God had already turned His face from Saul. Saul then committed another sin and tried to contact the dead (physically dead - not spiritually)

What were you trying to say in the above quote? That Saul turned to the saints for help so we should follow his example because they “know” things? If that’s what you are trying to prove, then you just proved the opposite.
 
Not at all, Ginger. We are speaking of the FACT that Samuel–who was DEAD–not only was brought up (wrongly, but that isn’t the point) but, on being brought up, was able to communicate with ‘live’ people AND to (accurately) tell them what was GOING to happen.

IOW, ‘dead’ people are not just lying around someplace totally unaware of ‘the world’. Samuel knew what was going on. He (quite correctly) rebuked Saul for his unlawful trafficking in mediums etc. but the fact remains that Samuel, although ‘dead’, not only maintained a recognizable human ‘shape’ and was able to use that ‘shape’ to communicate to ‘living’ beings and was aware of what was ‘going on’ in the world. . .even though he (Samuel) was ‘out of the world.’

So all the people trying to bring up that we cannot ‘pray to saints/the dead’ because they ‘CANNOT HEAR OR KNOW’ are shown to be in error through the referenced Scriptural passage.
 
And the woman in Acts 16 also knew things accurately enough that her masters were getting rich thru having her tell the future.

Yet, it was not her who knew - it was the demon within her that knew these things.

Paul cast out that demon and she was no longer able to predict the future.
 
What are you trying to say? That it is OK to contact the spirit world if you are asking for someone you know was a good person?

You have no control over who answers your call when you do this. The Bible absolutely forbids it. Even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.
 
Ginger2 said:
Quote: “The saints, …with God’s help can be granted certains gifts. The prophet Samuel who was dead fortold of a future of event when a king ask for his advise. It is apparent Samuel know something we did not know.”

What was your point? God had already turned His face from Saul. Saul then committed another sin and tried to contact the dead (physically dead - not spiritually)

What were you trying to say in the above quote? That Saul turned to the saints for help so we should follow his example because they “know” things? If that’s what you are trying to prove, then you just proved the opposite.
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Ginger2,

Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I will give why I brought up the prophet Samuel.

Samuel who is dead know the future. We know at this time the gates of heaven was closed, and the saints of old were in the abode of the dead, hades. Not the hades of damned soul, but those who await for the coming Messiah.

Samuel may not be in heaven, but in the passage he said,

“Why then to you ask me, since the Lord has turned from you and become your enemy? The Lord has done to you just as** He spoke by me**, for the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor David. Because he did not obey the voice of the Lord, and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you today.”

In the passage Samuel who is dead, the Lord when he said, “he has spoken to me.” In a sense, he revealed to him of the things to come.
**
Summoning the dead** is condemned by the Church and the majority of Christians. We do not pray to saints to know the future, or get something out of it. In fact, with the saints who died in Christ, we ask them to pray for us. It is the same with praying to Mary. We ask her to pray for us, as much as I ask others to pray for me.

Just recently, my mother is undergoing surgery. She ask that prayers be done on her behalf. I could have easily said no, but I love her and wish her well. Every night I pray the Vesper, and my mom is always on my mind, and I pray to God, and I intercede on her behalf.

I can go on further. If I have a friend who is in a unconscious and hospitalize, I know he is suffering. He is also a deeply religious Christian Catholic. I’m pretty sure, he want plenty of prayers done on his behalf to God. Since he is incapable of praying by himself, I will intercede for him because he is a dear friend of mine.

Saints are dead. They maybe separated from their natural bodies but their souls however, are alive in Christ. For Jesus did say, **“Whoever believes in me shall have eternal life.” **These saints in heaven see God face to face. In theological terms, we call it Beatific Vision.

Saints in heaven also have a free will as they do on earth, but they have been perfected because of the Blood of the Lamb. Do you suppose, these Christian saints forgotten their love ones who still struggle the temptations of the world? I don’t think so. They want them to have the greatest and best thing; eternity with God in heaven. So they will pray to God, and also pray for to God in their love one still on earth on their behalf.

The **Book of Revelation **makes this very clear.

8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -Revelation 5:8

Four living creature and four and twenty ancients aren’t angels. They can only be saints.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given to every one of them one; and it was said to them, that they should rest for a little time, till their fellow servants, and their brethren, who are to be slain, even as they, should be filled up. - Rev. 6:9-11

My friend, the praying to saints and Mary is a communion with the entire Family of God, the saints on earth (us) and the saints in heaven, and the saints in purgatory (though I don’t wish to discuss this issue here since purgatory). That is why we Catholics call it Communion of Saints.

I hope I clear this up for you. You can disagree but I only want you to at least to understand the Catholic position.
 
I still don’t know how Saul going to a medium to contact the spirit world does anything to support your position.

Saul contacted Samuel from the spirit world - Samuel “knew things”

So you are saying this is proof that

Your contacting Mary and others is a good thing?

Bad example.
 
Ginger2 said:
What are you trying to say? That it is OK to contact the spirit world if you are asking for someone you know was a good person?
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You keep missing the point.

What is actually prohibited? There is only one right answer.

A. Contacting Spirits
B. Raising Spirits
C. Consulting Mediums

Asking a saint in heaven to aid you in your personal requests and your personal needs of God is not what you believe it to be.
 
I am not the one who used Saul as an example for why asking saints to intercede on our behave is a good thing.
 
Ginger2 said:
I still don’t know how Saul going to a medium to contact the spirit world does anything to support your position.

Saul contacted Samuel from the spirit world - Samuel “knew things”

So you are saying this is proof that

Your contacting Mary and others is a good thing?

Bad example.
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CONTACT that is the magic word.

Contact: the act or state of touching; a touching or meeting, as of two things or people.

Asking those in heaven to pray for us is not CONTACTING them.

Now consulting a medium is for the purpose of CONTACTING. ie BRING ONESELF FACE TO FACE. That is what the medium did, she brought the spirit of samuel up out of that temporary holding place for the purpose of a CONTACT.
 
We are not trying to contact the spirit world, Ginger.

And I don’t know HOW to make it clearer to you:

The point is, Samuel is DEAD but even after death he is AWARE of what goes on ‘for the living’.

The saints, who are DEAD, after death are AWARE of what goes on for the living. Therefore, just as in LIFE we who are members of the body of Christ may pray with one another, in DEATH those who are members of the body of Christ may pray with one another–whether they are dead or living.

As St. Paul tells us, “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is God of the LIVING, not the DEAD.” and we are “alive in Christ”.

So we are NOT contacting “spirits” or the spirit world. We are, as members of Christ’s body, praying with other members of Christ’s body. Our prayers are, of course, always directed to God, though they can be directed through another (as one may ask one’s sister, “come with me to tell God how much we love Him.” By asking your sister to come along, is your asking–asking is a prayer, too, so is the ‘asking’ her to come, the same as the WORSHIP you give God? Of COURSE NOT.) What is your problem with that? Do you object to prayer to God?
 
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