The Virgin Mary

[justasking4]

They can. Tabitha whom Peter rose from the dead after he pray. If you claim that someone** who is dead cannot hear** then explain how Jesus and the Apostles were able to raise them up from the dead?

I was thinking of this further and i wanted to ask you about the context where these miracles took place and did the writers of the NT, especially in the letters use these kinds of miracles as a basis to pray to saints in heaven?
If you as you i understand you to say, the dead were able to hear Peter and Jesus tell them to rise, why don’t we see this used as a justification in the letters to pray to those who have supposedly gone to heaven?

 

[Mannyfit75]

“Samuel knew things”

So did the woman in Acts.

“She was not dead”

True, but I already pointed out that is was not the woman who knew, it was the demon inside her.

A demon it was.

The point is that I am not so impressed as the rest of you that Samuel “knew things” Big deal. Demons “know things” too.

Saul and Samuel do not make your point about praying to Saints. You are mixing apples and oranges, yet you act as if I am the one who brought this example up.

I do not disagree with praying for one another. I said that right at the start. Yet you continually tell me we should pray for one another. You are arguing all by yourselves. I agree.

Our dialog cannot progress if you continue to argue points we agree on or insist Samuel is a parallel to your point about praying to the saints.

The difference is that you think it is better to pray to a saint and ask them to ask Jesus to ask God.

I say it is better to go directly to God in prayer.

The praying to the saints or Mary is always with God, it is never without Him. Since when did the Catholic Church said, that we are to pray to saints only?

Dead saints are part of the God’s family as we are, Ginger. So it would be fruitful to get many people to pray for us, dead and alive.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I was thinking of this further and i wanted to ask you about the context where these miracles took place and did the writers of the NT, especially in the letters use these kinds of miracles as a basis to pray to saints in heaven?
If you as you i understand you to say, the dead were able to hear Peter and Jesus tell them to rise, why don’t we see this used as a justification in the letters to pray to those who have supposedly gone to heaven?

These miracles were written to strengthen our faith. Souls my friend aren’t just bodyless entity, they are like us. They have emotions, feelings, they can love. They can be sadden. They also have memory.

The difference between the saints on earth and the saints in heaven is this. We cannot see God face to face. Saints who are victorious by the Blood of Christ can see God face to face, so they have a more direct means to pray to God than we do.

When we die, we do hope to see God face to face, provided that we persevere in the end.

When I pray I pray to God himself when I prayed the Divine Mercy Chaplet and the Morning and Evening Vespers, I pray to Mary during the rosary. I have prayed to my Guardian Angel, and Archangel Michael. In those prayers, God is always there. I never exclude him.

 

[Ginger2]

“…they have a more direct means to pray to God than we do.”

Exactly how are my prayers directly to God limited?

And why are my prayers to the saints not suffering this same limitation? Afterall, they are in heaven with God and I am on Earth.

 

[justasking4]

Mannyfit75;2708437]Praying to the saints is not the same as using them as medium. The saints offer prayers to God.

i agree there are some differences but there are also some similarties.

8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: Revelation Chapter 5:8

Do we find in this passage any statement that tells us that the prayers of the saints were **prayed to **the 4 living creatures or the 24 ancients ?

 

[justasking4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
There is no evidence in these cases that the person themselves had the ability to hear Peter or Jesus and respond to them. It is a power that God granted Peter to do this. The same with our Lord.

 

[justasking4]

Where is Heaven? It’s not up in the sky, far away - it’s in my heart, where Jesus is. All of the Saints are with Jesus, in my heart, so there is no reason for them not to be able to understand my prayers, since they are as close to me as I am to myself.

This does not necessarily follow. Just because someone may be nearbt does not mean they can hear you. We know this from our everyday expierence.

 

[jmcrae]

This does not necessarily follow. Just because someone may be nearbt does not mean they can hear you. We know this from our everyday expierence.

If they are inside my heart, they can hear the thoughts of my heart.

 

[LilyM]

 

[justasking4]

LilyM;2708692]

Rot - angels don’t have ears at all, or any other physical organs - Gabriel heard Mary perfectly well! Satan and his demons hear us perfectly well all the time, do they not - yet without the organs we use to hear.

 

[Ginger2]

LilyM,

I found your post very amusing - and I mean that in a positive way.

However, the idea here was that this dead body could hear and “woke up”.

The spirit leaves the dead body. Therefore the body of the person Paul rose to life did not hear anything.

It was by the will of God that thru Paul, God brought the person back to life. It was not magic words spoken from Paul’s lips, nor was it the hearing of those words that brought life back into a lifeless body. It was God.

Just as in Ex 17:11
As long as Moses kept his hands raised up, Israel had the better of the fight, but when he let his hands rest, Amalek had the better of the fight.
12
Moses’ hands, however, grew tired; so they put a rock in place for him to sit on. Meanwhile Aaron and Hur supported his hands, one on one side and one on the other, so that his hands remained steady till sunset.

Moses’ arms held no power. It was God.

 

[Mannyfit75]

justasking4:

Not sure i follow you here. Is it not true that when people die they can no longer hear our voices since the organs that make that possible are no longer functioning. Correct?

You mean when I we die the world will be a mute or deaf world? Come on. Did not God create the world by His words, and vocally said, “Let there be light.”

Souls can hear even if they have no body.

It seems to me that if this is true, then something else is going on in these particular miracles.

The miracle is clear, when Jesus spoke the dead heard and responded by getting up. Likewise, Peter prayed to God concerning Tabitha, and he in turn raised Tabitha from the dead by telling get to get up.

It may may sense with what you believe about this but that does not mean its true. Logic does not tell us if something is actually true but only if we have thought and reasoned correctly.

Logic and reasoning as long as they are in line with God, they can use to give a proper discussion. If you do not believe to be true then Jesus shouldn’t be able to raise the dead because he spoke and Lazarus rose from the dead.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM,

I found your post very amusing - and I mean that in a positive way.

However, the idea here was that this dead body could hear and “woke up”.

The spirit leaves the dead body. Therefore the body of the person Paul rose to life did not hear anything.

It was by the will of God that thru Paul, God brought the person back to life. It was not magic words spoken from Paul’s lips, nor was it the hearing of those words that brought life back into a lifeless body. It was God.

Just as in Ex 17:11
As long as Moses kept his hands raised up, Israel had the better of the fight, but when he let his hands rest, Amalek had the better of the fight.
12
Moses’ hands, however, grew tired; so they put a rock in place for him to sit on. Meanwhile Aaron and Hur supported his hands, one on one side and one on the other, so that his hands remained steady till sunset.

Moses’ arms held no power. It was God.

And yet God chose to act through Paul, through Peter, and through Moses’ arms, instead of directly on His own.

And he chooses to act through us - and ALSO through the saints who are still living members of christ’s body - as alive and active as we are.

God is not a God of passivity but of action. So are ALL who are with Him and in Him - including the heavenly saints. Nor does He act entirely alone, though He could easily do so. He chooses human and heavenly co-operators in that action.

And regardless of the method, Tabitha DID hear Peter and Lazarus DID hear Jesus - and the heavenly saints DO hear us. They hear us as Tabitha heard Peter and as Lazarus heard Jesus, and as John heard EVERYONE on heaven, on earth and under the earth in Revelation - through God’s grace :yup:

 

[Ginger2]

Well that still leaves the question of

Exactly how are my prayers directly to God limited?

And why are my prayers to the saints not suffering this same limitation?

The reasoning that says we should pray to the saints because God can hear the saints better because they are physically closer to Him, leaves me wondering why anyone would think the saints can hear us better than God since the saints are with God.

 

[LilyM]

Well that still leaves the question of

Exactly how are my prayers directly to God limited?

And why are my prayers to the saints not suffering this same limitation?

The reasoning that says we should pray to the saints because God can hear the saints better because they are physically closer to Him, leaves me wondering why anyone would think the saints can hear us better than God since the saints are with God.

James points out that ‘the prayers of a righteous man avail much’. He didn’t say ‘EVERYONE’S prayers avail exactly the same as each other’s’. So if you have a problem it’s actually with scripture rather than with us. Clearly not all pray-ers (persons who pray) are created equal.

And if you want to be certain your prayers are being ‘sponsored’ and echoed by very righteous people indeed, of course you’d go to those you know are already in heaven in His glory - the heavenly saints.

Nothing to do with them being physically closer to God (what a very strange notion, since God is everywhere!) but because we can be secure that they are indeed powerfully righteous if they’ve reached the Heavenly Kingdom, no?

I don’t know for certain that you, your pastor or anyone on earth are righteous enough to achieve salvation and heaven, but I know Peter, Paul, Mary, the blessed Apostles and martyrs have indeed done so and are there right now!

 

[Mannyfit75]

The reasoning that says we should pray to the saints because God can hear the saints better because they are physically closer to Him, leaves me wondering why anyone would think the saints can hear us better than God since the saints are with God.

Because they see God, and God himself see that it pleases him.

St. Paul put it best.

1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and** thanksgivings be made for all men**: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have** all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth**. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:1-5.

Paul tells us that intercession between men is good and acceptable in the sight of God.

 

[Ginger2]

And just how do we KNOW who is already in heaven beholding Him face to face - the heavenly saints.

The bible tells us children of God and Children of the devil walk in this world side by side and we cannot tell one from the other.

It is only by the fruit of their works -not by their works that Scripture suggests we even have a clue. Yet we don’t always see immediate results of what God does thru us.

You could be praying for someone who is in hell to intercede with his prayers to God.

Or perhaps some non-catholic is in heaven yet you refuse to take advantage of their closeness to God because you believe only Catholics go to heaven. (believe me there are a lot of Catholics who believe this)

 

[justasking4]

Mannyfit75;2708907]You mean when I we die the world will be a mute or deaf world? Come on.

The scriptures don’t say that i’m aware of. Let me encourage you to read Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 which sheds some light on this.

Did not God create the world by His words, and vocally said, “Let there be light.”

Souls can hear even if they have no body.

These are 2 different concepts. We have no way to know if a soul can hear us hear.

The miracle is clear, when Jesus spoke the dead heard and responded by getting up. Likewise, Peter prayed to God concerning Tabitha, and he in turn raised Tabitha from the dead by telling get to get up.

It may be clear but it doesn’t tell us much of the nature of the soul in death i.e. separation from this world. We know something unique was going on here since we know today that if we speak to a dead person in a coffin or wherever that don’t rise up. Evidently Jesus had some special power that made it possible for Him to speak to a dead corpse and bring the soul back to the body.

Logic and reasoning as long as they are in line with God, they can use to give a proper discussion. If you do not believe to be true then Jesus shouldn’t be able to raise the dead because he spoke and Lazarus rose from the dead.

If Peter was unable to raise the dead would would you say that is illogical?

 

[Mannyfit75]

And just how do we KNOW who is already in heaven beholding Him face to face - the heavenly saints.

The bible tells us children of God and Children of the devil walk in this world side by side and we cannot tell one from the other.

Have you read any of the writings of the saints. I have. Their love for Jesus Christ is amazing and he also live by it, by offering many sacrifices.

St. Bernadette of France suffer much for her love of Jesus and Mary. Many miracles happen at Lourdes which she founded. Yet she herself did not use the water to cure her TB. At the end of her life, she died of TB.

These saints were canonized because not of what they know, but because their love for God and there neighbors. The majority of them died for their faith, especially those who died in the Holocaust, and in Eastern Communist Europe, as well as places in Latin America.

The Devil want us to be apart from God, and you tell me these saints are devil worshippers? Is that what you are implying?

It is only by the fruit of their works -not by their works that Scripture suggests we even have a clue. Yet we don’t always see immediate results of what God does thru us.

How do you show your faith? Do you live by them? Do you do what Jesus Christ demand of us by obeying his Commandments?

You could be praying for someone who is in hell to intercede with his prayers to God.

Or perhaps some non-catholic is in heaven yet you refuse to take advantage of their closeness to God because you believe only Catholics go to heaven. (believe me there are a lot of Catholics who believe this)

What happen to your charity when you are not clearly attacking the sanctity of these Christian men and women who died before us? This kind of attack of yours is extremely bias and offensive, I don’t think the Forum Rules here would allow it.

 

[Ginger2]

What about Lazarus who was seen in heaven with Abraham.

Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:

I don’t believe the saints can communicate with us unless God desires it for His purpose.