The Virgin Mary

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Ginger said: I don’t really have a problem with Catholics praying to whom ever they want. My issue with praying to the saints stems over Catholics who insist praying directly to God is less effective.
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Really? Catholics believe praying to God is less effective?

Why would you ask someone else to pray for you?

The usual opt out answer is that the Bible tells us to pray for one another.

OKAY, I will buy that answer but…

Why does the Bible tell us to pray for one another if our prayers to God are effective ALONE.

What does asking another person to pray for us make a different if Praying to God ALONE is SUFFICIENT?

Why is “Ask and you shall receive” not an absolute truth. Millions ask, but only a handful actually receive.

One verse says “Just call on Jesus, and you will be saved”. We would all agree that is not an absolute truth either?
 
Joey,

I just wrote a whole page answering your statements, then I realized we were going off track and deleted it.

Here is all I have to say:

Catholics put far to much emphasis on Mary. Saying things like:

Mary was to prepare the coming of the Messiah,
(It was John who was to prepare the coming of the Messiah-not Mary)

Mary shares in Christ’s divinity
(God does not share His glory with anyone)

Credit due God is so often given to Mary as tho she were equal - a co-creator is another term used of Mary.

Mary was honored to be the mother of Jesus, but she is not the mother of God, nor is she the mother of the entire human race. These statements about her are over-reaching and unscriptural. There is nothing in the Bible nor in early Tradition to support these claims.

But the main point is that none of this whether you believe it or not has any bearing on our salvation. Only God through Christ Jesus is responsible for that.
 
God bless you, Ginger. . .but I still disagree with you and your concepts of “God alone” as you have presented them throughout this thread. I think (this is my opinion here) that while you are most certainly sincere in your belief, your belief is ‘narrower’ than it should be. God is not a ‘narrow’ person. Again, my opinion, your continual focusing on a particular phrase, a particular passage, a particular IDEA, without fully considering the contexts and the COMPLEXITIES of God and His teaching and His relationship with any and all of us, ‘narrows’ your view to such an extent that, focused on your ‘God alone’ mindset you miss the big picture. . .the second commandment part, which comes of course AFTER the first commandment, “love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength”. That second commandment “love your neighbor as yourself” has much more for us to ‘work’ with than simply good wishes or even works of charity, prayer for others, etc. It is the ‘broadening’ of view which most Catholics utilize, in FULLY following not the ‘first commandment ALONE’ but in realizing the relationship of one to the other and giving each its proper due.

Of course, if one’s mindset is so firmly narrowed as yours is (please, no offense), to see anything which you have (in that narrow way) decided is to be “God’s alone” being even peripherally considered to have some relationship with anybody else, then one is completely stuck ever further into a smaller, and smaller, view of God. Despite your protesting that you “seek God ALONE”. . .the fact that you DO seek Him “alone” is actually hindering your total knowledge and understanding of God.
 
Ginger.

Assuming that you are married. Think about when you first asked your husband to be to come to your parent’s house to be introduced over dinner.

What if your husband to be said, “It’s not neccessary to meet your parents, you alone are all I need, your parents are extra baggage in the relationship”

Your husband would be exhibiting this “God Alone” syndrome with respect to you.

How would you react?
 
Tantum & Joey,

I really don’t know how you got that I said we don’t need fellowship with one another out of what I said.

We are to interact with one another and pray for one another. My problem with Catholic teaching on Mary has always been the extreme focus on her.

I have always prayed directly to God because that is what came naturally for me as a child.

I will say it again, whether you believe Mary ever sinned or not, it has no bearing on our salvation. Only God through Christ Jesus is responsible for that.
 
Ginger2 said:
We are to interact with one another and pray for one another. My problem with Catholic teaching on Mary has always been the extreme focus on her.
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The teaching of the Catholic Church that I know does not have an extreme focus on Mary. How did you reach this conclusion?
 
Ginger2 said:
Joey,

Mary shares in Christ’s divinity
(God does not share His glory with anyone)

Credit due God is so often given to Mary as tho she were equal - a co-creator is another term used of Mary.

But the main point is that none of this whether you believe it or not has any bearing on our salvation. Only God through Christ Jesus is responsible for that.
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all good points ginger2. how are you? overflowing with the joy of the Lord?
we hope to share in the divine life with Mary and all the saint in heaven as God himself promises in 2 Peter 1:4
And because of his glory and excellence, he has given us great and precious promises. These are the promises that enable you to share his divine nature and escape the world’s corruption caused by human desires

Mary is only sharing in the divinty of Christ because of the great and precious promises GIVEN by God.
Keep praying to God and He may just introduce you to his mother, the mother He created for Himself. A perfect mother to call His very own which He allowed her to co-create a flesh for himself. Just as I have been given the honor of co-creating three beautiful children.
what do you think?
peace
 
i hope we arent making this a ging bashing party. she loves God and He knows how to get to her better than any of us
 
Where did I get the idea that Catholics put too much emphasis on Mary?

On this thread it was said that Mary shares in Christ’s divinity. That is totally against Scripture.

Also, the Catholic Church refuses to denounce the psalters of the Virgin Mary. Compare the Psalms of David with the The Psalter of the Blessed Virgin:

15
Preserve me, O Lord, for I have put my trust in thee.
Preserve me, O Lady, for I have hoped in thee:

25
Judge me, O Lord, for I have walked in my innocence:
Judge me, O Lady, for I have departed from my innocence:

53
Save me, O God, by thy name, and judge me in thy strength
O Lady, save me in thy name: and deliver me from my injustices.

The name of God is replaced with reference to Mary and the Catholic Church does not condemn this nor even try to distance themselves from those who promote it.

I have shown this to Catholics before and they respond by saying they don’t see any similarity.
 
sharing glory. how wonderful a God we have. a God who shares. even with lowing handmaids

Romans 5:2 (Whole Chapter)
Through faith in Jesus we have received God’s grace. In that grace we stand. We are full of joy because we expect to share in God’s glory.

Romans 8:17 (Whole Chapter)
As his children, we will receive all that he has for us. We will share what Christ receives. But we must share in his sufferings if we want to share in his glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 (Whole Chapter)
He chose you to be saved by accepting the good news that we preach. And you will share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 2:10 (Whole Chapter)
God has made everything. He has acted in exactly the right way. He is bringing his many sons and daughters to share in his glory. To do so, he has made the One who saved them perfect because of his sufferings.

1 Peter 5:1 (Whole Chapter)
To Elders and Young Men ] I’m speaking to the elders among you. I was a witness of Christ’s sufferings. And I will also share in the glory that is going to come. I’m making my appeal to you as one who is an elder together with you.

1 Peter 5:10 (Whole Chapter)
God always gives you all the grace you need. So you will only have to suffer for a little while. Then God himself will build you up again. He will make you strong and steady. And he has chosen you to share in his eternal glory because you belong to Christ.
 
Ginger2 said:
Catholics put far to much emphasis on Mary. Saying things like:

Mary was to prepare the coming of the Messiah,
(It was John who was to prepare the coming of the Messiah-not Mary)

Mary shares in Christ’s divinity
(God does not share His glory with anyone)

Credit due God is so often given to Mary as tho she were equal - a co-creator is another term used of Mary.

Mary was honored to be the mother of Jesus, but she is not the mother of God, nor is she the mother of the entire human race. These statements about her are over-reaching and unscriptural. There is nothing in the Bible nor in early Tradition to support these claims.
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Catholics believe along with all Christians that Mary did more than to prepare the way for the Messiah. She brought the Saviour into the world. If not for her free consent to cooperate with God, John the Baptist would not have been spending his time preaching and baptizing people in the river Jordan. :nope: Perhaps you espouse the doctrine of ‘pre-destination’. If that’s the case, then you must believe that Mary had no free will in the Annunciation - she was nothing but God’s robot and human “incubator”:eek: - and that mankind has no responsibilty to reverse the Fall as “co-workers with God”, for there is no redemptive merit in our acts or suffering. Please read St.Paul one more time. 👋

According to ‘Christendom-Awake’, an anti-Catholic Protestant web-site:

"The persons to whom the new law of grace is given are Christ’s faithful, those who have been “regenerated” in the waters of baptism. These persons have…entered into the paschal mystery of Christ: they have in, with, and through Christ died to sin and…have risen to a new kind of life. They have “put on Christ”, become incorporated in his body, the Church, and made children of God, MEMBERS OF THE DIVINE FAMILY.

"In so far as he is God, Jesus mediates to us A SHARE IN HIS DIVINITY 👍 , for “from his fullness we have all received” ( Jn 1:16). Indeed, in Jesus we have become “PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE.” (2 Pet 1:4). :extrahappy:

Ginger, I suppose this would include every human being except Mary, the mother of Jesus, right? Or do Catholics and Protestants actually agree on this score? 🤷

Should all credit go to God for the disobedience of Adam and Eve and the Fall of mankind? After all, God did create them knowing what would happen? Again, according to your reasoning, mankind has no free will and moral responsibility. We are all pawns in the divine game. But be assured that God did create everything, including our free will, and it was originally good. Yet God in his omnipotence did in fact create a rock too heavy for himself to lift: human free will. In his omnipotence he created beings in his own image with a will of their own, just like him. He gave us something that not even he would consider worthy of controlling. This is a limitation that only God could impose on himself. There are rocks too heavy for us to lift in our physical capacity, but we didn’t will to create these rocks.No, Catholics have not imposed any limitations on God. :dts:

If Mary is not the Mother of God, then Jesus was not God, but only a man. Mothers bear persons, not natures. Are you a Nestorian by any chance?

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
we all share in his glory. even lowly handmaids. how great a God we have. a God who shares.
Romans 5:2 (Whole Chapter)
Through faith in Jesus we have received God’s grace. In that grace we stand. We are full of joy because we expect to share in God’s glory.

Romans 8:17 (Whole Chapter)
As his children, we will receive all that he has for us. We will share what Christ receives. But we must share in his sufferings if we want to share in his glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 (Whole Chapter)
He chose you to be saved by accepting the good news that we preach. And you will share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 2:10 (Whole Chapter)
God has made everything. He has acted in exactly the right way. He is bringing his many sons and daughters to share in his glory. To do so, he has made the One who saved them perfect because of his sufferings.

1 Peter 5:1 (Whole Chapter)
To Elders and Young Men ] I’m speaking to the elders among you. I was a witness of Christ’s sufferings. And I will also share in the glory that is going to come. I’m making my appeal to you as one who is an elder together with you.

1 Peter 5:10 (Whole Chapter)
God always gives you all the grace you need. So you will only have to suffer for a little while. Then God himself will build you up again. He will make you strong and steady. And he has chosen you to share in his eternal glory because you belong to Christ.
 
Ginger2 said:
Where did I get the idea that Catholics put too much emphasis on Mary?

On this thread it was said that Mary shares in Christ’s divinity. That is totally against Scripture.
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Then whoever said is not in line with the teachings of the Church. Mary is a created being like you and I. In no way is she divine. The only divinity she shares is the same as each will be able to share if we “become like Him” when we “see Him face to face”.
 
“If Mary is not the Mother of God, then Jesus was not God, but only a man…”

Jesus is God, but God is not Jesus. Mary gave birth and is the Earthly mother of Jesus. God already existed he has no mother.

If not for Noah’s obedience to God Mary would have never been born.

I don’t see anyone troubling over the psalters of Mary.
 
Ginger2 said:
“If Mary is not the Mother of God, then Jesus was not God, but only a man…”

Jesus is God, but God is not Jesus. Mary gave birth and is the Earthly mother of Jesus. God already existed he has no mother.

If not for Noah’s obedience to God Mary would have never been born.

I don’t see anyone troubling over the psalters of Mary.
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Not sure what you mean by the “palters of Mary”. What are these?
 
Here is a sample the 1st line of each verse is from the Bible. The second line is the corresponding verse from a psalter of Mary.

16
Preserve me, O Lord, for I have put my trust in thee.
Preserve me, O Lady, for I have hoped in thee:

26
Judge me, O Lord, for I have walked in my innocence:
Judge me, O Lady, for I have departed from my innocence:

54
Save me, O God, by thy name, and judge me in thy strength
O Lady, save me in thy name: and deliver me from my injustices.
 
Here is another one:

Below is Psalm 148 with corresponding lines from the psalters of Mary 148:

1 Praise the LORD from the heavens; give praise in the heights.
Let us praise Our Lady in the heavens: glorify her in the highest.

2 Praise him, all you angels; give praise, all you hosts.
Praise her, all ye men and beasts: birds of the air, and fishes of the sea.

3 Praise him, sun and moon; give praise, all shining stars.
Praise her, sun and moon: stars, and the orbs of the planets.

4 Praise him, highest heavens, you waters above the heavens.
Praise her, Cherubim and Seraphim: thrones and dominations and powers.

5 Let them all praise the LORD’S name; for the LORD
Praise her, all ye legions of angels: praise her all order of heavenly
dwellers.
 
Ginger2 said:
Jesus is God, but God is not Jesus. Mary gave birth and is the Earthly mother of Jesus. God already existed he has no mother.
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Please explain that one to me. Seriously: “Jesus is God, but God is not Jesus”? God was not created from Mary, but He stooped unto our nature so as to be born of her.
Ginger2 said:
I don’t see anyone troubling over the psalters of Mary.
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The Psalter of Mary was an individual saint’s devotion (St. Bonaventure, 1221-1274); it’s not part of the liturgy of the Church. There is already a thread on the forum about it. It appears to me that it times St. Bonaventure went overboard in his great love for the Blessed Virgin Mary, but he does not write of worshiping her.
 
Ginger2 said:
“If Mary is not the Mother of God, then Jesus was not God, but only a man…”

Jesus is God, but God is not Jesus. Mary gave birth and is the Earthly mother of Jesus. God already existed he has no mother.
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It seems that herein lies some of the difficulty. Jesus is only one person. He has two natures - one human, one divine. When he became incarnate, was born, both natures were present, and never more can be separated. The living, growing baby in Mary womb was both human and divine. God is three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Though distinct, God is totally present in each person. Therefore, “Mother of God” is a perfectly accurate title.
 
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