The Virgin Mary

[jmcrae]

No mother has ever created her child. All children are created by God, and placed into their mother’s wombs by God, where they put on their mother and father’s flesh, and become physical human beings.

Nobody thinks that Mary created Jesus. He was placed into her womb, though, and she did give birth to Him, exactly the same way all mothers do - Jesus partook of her human flesh in the womb, and became a physical human being.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Psalm 148 with corresponding lines from the psalters of Mary 148:

1 Praise the LORD from the heavens; give praise in the heights.
Let us praise Our Lady in the heavens: glorify her in the highest.

You know, Ginger, I have a reasonable collection of Marian books. But I cannot find this Marian psalter. Would you be kind enough to let us know where this is found? I have looked all over for it. . .

 

[Ginger2]

Japhy says the psalters come from St. Bonaventure, 1221-1274

I had this info in a n old file and do not remember where I originally found it. What struck me was the nonchalant way Catholics view this sort of blaspheme.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

St. Bonaventure, then, in the 13th century --a century earlier than Chaucer-- in a private devotion so far as we know (since I’m unable to find records, and it would be written in Latin as well)–gave praise to Mary as the Mother of Christ, in the type of language** of the time**. If you had studied the period, you would know that this type of language, which to us reads as very ornate and flowery, was ‘the norm’ in addressing one’s ‘superiors.’
It is not ‘blasphemy’ in that nowhere is Mary (whom we Catholics quite SCRIPTURALLY AND LOGICALLY consider as the “queen mother” in heaven) given credit as ‘creator’, but merely acknowledged as a great Christian woman to whom God gave the glory of being Mother of the Lord.

And I do think that even you will acknowledge that Mary, as the Mother of Christ, is simply by that role ‘superior’ to every other mother in history.

Do you really think that God created anyone ‘better’ than Mary, as far as both being Mother of the Lord and in her obedience, humility, and faithfulness? Created, mind you.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Japhy says the psalters come from St. Bonaventure, 1221-1274

I had this info in a n old file and do not remember where I originally found it. What struck me was the nonchalant way Catholics view this sort of blaspheme.

Tell me if you write a love letter or poem to your significant other. Would you not use the same poetic language?

Second, you live in the 21st Century. St. Bonaventure 1221-1274 live in a time when language and culture differ than today. What you view as blapheming is only the mere fact that you do not consider the language and culture at the time.

 

[justasking4]

Please explain that one to me. Seriously: “Jesus is God, but God is not Jesus”? God was not created from Mary, but He stooped unto our nature so as to be born of her.

The Psalter of Mary was an individual saint’s devotion (St. Bonaventure, 1221-1274); it’s not part of the liturgy of the Church. There is already a thread on the forum about it. It appears to me that it times St. Bonaventure went overboard in his great love for the Blessed Virgin Mary, but he does not write of worshiping her.

Take a look at what he wrote and you don’t think this as worship to her?
16
Preserve me, O Lord, for I have put my trust in thee.
Preserve me, O Lady, for I have hoped in thee:

26
Judge me, O Lord, for I have walked in my innocence:
Judge me, O Lady, for I have departed from my innocence:

54
Save me, O God, by thy name, and judge me in thy strength
**O Lady, save me **in thy name: and deliver me from my injustices.

There is no doubt he is comparing Mary with God and to compare her like this is to make her some kind of goddess. Whoever wrote this should have been condemned for heresy.

 

[justasking4]

Tell me if you write a love letter or poem to your significant other. Would you not use the same poetic language?

Second, you live in the 21st Century. St. Bonaventure 1221-1274 live in a time when language and culture differ than today. What you view as blapheming is only the mere fact that you do not consider the language and culture at the time.

Are you saying that you don’t have a problem with him comparing Mary with God Himself? Look closely how he compares them on the same level.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Don’t people often compare mother and child?

 

[Ginger2]

Tantumergo called Mary the “queen mother” in heaven

I have heard her referred to before as the “queen of Heaven”

Mary is not the queen of heaven. This is what the Bible says about the queen of heaven:

Jeremiah 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have … been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

 

[jmcrae]

Tantumergo called Mary the “queen mother” in heaven

I have heard her referred to before as the “queen of Heaven”

Mary is not the queen of heaven. This is what the Bible says about the queen of heaven:

Jeremiah 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have … been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

Mary is the Queen of Heaven because her son is its King. This is what it means, to “have a relationship” with Jesus. Mary “has a relationship” with Jesus in that she is His mother. Because it is an authentic relationship, she gains all of the privileges accorded to the mother of the King, including the role of Queen.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the false gods recorded in the Old Testament.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The “queen of heaven” mentioned in JEREMIAH (the old testament) is a pagan goddess OF THAT TIME.

Just because this term was used of a pagan goddess does not mean that there is not a REAL queen of heaven.

After all, I believe in Esdras !:6 Ataxerxes is refered to as “king of kings”. So also Ezechiel 26:7 God HIMSELF refers to Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon as the ‘king of kings’.

Now by YOUR logic, one would NEVER be able to call Jesus Christ, “king of kings”, because
according to SCRIPTURE, the ‘king of kings’ is Ataxerxes. Or Nebuchadnezzar.

Care to explain this? Or is Jesus Christ not “king of kings?”

 

[Ginger2]

How would you like to be given the same title given to a pagan?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You have it backwards, Ginger.

The pagans were the ones who were (wrongly) given a title which was not truly theirs.

The Queen of Heaven is the Mother of the King of Heaven.

The King of Kings is Christ.

And I notice you neatly sidestep the question. . .

Do YOU call Jesus King of Kings? IS He (whether you call Him that or not) King of Kings?

 

[jmcrae]

How would you like to be given the same title given to a pagan?

If the pagan is the fake one, and I am the real one, then it doesn’t matter, does it?

 

[japhy]

How would you like to be given the same title given to a pagan?

Don’t you know that many beliefs of Christians are similar to those held by the pagan cult of Mithras? (This is why some historians try to discredit Christianity as just another cult.) Just because a religion has something in common with another religion it considers pagan DOES NOT MEAN that the thing in common is necessarily pagan.

Mary is the rightful bearer of the title of Queen of Heaven because her Son Jesus Christ is the King of Heaven, and by the Israelite tradition, the mother of the King is the Queen. It’s not a question of Mary having the same title as a pagan deity; it’s a question of the pagan deity having usurped the title from its rightful owner.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

By the way, Ginger, all ‘titles’. . .with the exception of “Y-HW-H” which the Lord gave Himself. . .were originally ‘pagan’ titles.

King. . .pagan.
Queen. . . pagan.
God. . .pagan.

Heck even “father” and “mother” are PAGAN titles.

All the words we use in our language today (even English) have roots which come from times when the people using those languages were PAGAN.

Unless you don’t want to speak of God as a Father, or a Lord, or indeed to use ‘language’ to speak to Him at all. . .you’re pretty much sunk to having to use words which “pagans” used. . .

 

[Mannyfit75]

Are you saying that you don’t have a problem with him comparing Mary with God Himself? Look closely how he compares them on the same level.

I have never compared with Mary with God. I have heard parents called their new born infants. “O, my precious. My love, You are so adorable.” Tell me is the parent blaspheming God, by calling his own child precisous, and my love?

 

[Ginger2]

Quote: “The teaching of the Catholic Church that I know does not have an extreme focus on Mary. How did you reach this conclusion?”

“I came out of the mouth of the Most High, the first-born before all creatures” (Ecclus. xxiv., 5).
The Bible says Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature:” - not Mary (Col 1:15)

“To this Divine Mother we have offered the flowers of the month of May;…” (Ecclus. xxiv., 23).

Douey Rheims say She will crush (Gen 3:15) This is a mistranslation.
In Rom.16:20 It states, “The God of peace will crush Satan.”

 

[japhy]

Ginger2, STOP adding to your argument without answering our responses and our questions. Play fair.

“I came out of the mouth of the Most High, the first-born before all creatures” (Ecclus. xxiv., 5).
The Bible says Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature:” - not Mary (Col 1:15)

Consider this response:

Perhaps the pope was using “first-born,” not in the chronological sense but in more of a spiritual sense, as it is used of David in Psalm 89:28, where he is called “the first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth,” even though David was neither the first-born man (Cain) nor the first-born king (Nimrod) nor even the first-born of Jesse’s sons (Eliab).

In this spiritual sense, the pope would mean that the Virgin Mary is the greatest of all mere creatures.

“To this Divine Mother we have offered the flowers of the month of May;…” (Ecclus. xxiv., 23).

Please state your problem with the quote, and give us the sources of these quotes. I assume this is from Munificentissimus Deus, but I’d like to know for sure.

Douey Rheims say She will crush (Gen 3:15) This is a mistranslation.
In Rom.16:20 It states, “The God of peace will crush Satan.”

It is through both Jesus and Mary that Satan was crushed, since Mary is to Eve what Jesus is to Adam; both Adam and Eve transgressed in the Garden of Eden, and so both Jesus and Mary do not transgress – Mary says “yes” to God instead of the “no” of Eve, and Jesus does the Father’s will at all times.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You have been told over and over that the use of “divine”, even capitalized (considering that English spelling even at the time of the Founding Fathers was eclectic enough that even in the same letter or correspondence people did not spell the same word the same way each time, and would capitalize a word in one sentence but not in the next) does not mean that one is calling the person to be the equivalent of God in HIS divinity.

Is THAT all?