The Virgin Mary

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VociMike said:
No it’s not. Adam and Eve were also free of original sin and yet they committed personal sin. I think introducing the Immaculate Conception into this thread is just confusing the OP’s question.
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Adam and Eve were free from original sin for a while, because sin entered the world with Adam’s transgression, so, that’s a poor comparison.

Are you saying that while Catholics must maintain that Mary was free of original sin, they are permitted to believe that she was guilty of committing personal sin?
 
sandusky said:
Are you saying that while Catholics must maintain that Mary was free of original sin, they are permitted to believe that she was guilty of committing personal sin?
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What do you think? You claim to have some knowledge about basic Catholic beliefs right? Why don’t you answer this for yourself.
 
CuriousInIL said:
what about Romans 3:23 always quoted at me regarding Mary’s sinlessness?
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That would have to include Jesus as-well because He would have been born from an unclean vessel.

And because He was both human and Divine, His human nature must then by Romans standards have been sinful, and we know Jesus had no sin.
 
Mag_Uidhir said:
That would have to include Jesus as-well because He would have been born from an unclean vessel.

And because He was both human and Divine, His human nature must then by Romans standards have been sinful, and we know Jesus had no sin.
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But the folks that say this would say there are a number of clear biblical passages that exempt Jesus, but none that exempt Mary.
 
Mag_Uidhir said:
That would have to include Jesus as-well because He would have been born from an unclean vessel.

And because He was both human and Divine, His human nature must then by Romans standards have been sinful, and we know Jesus had no sin.
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How do you know Jesus had no sin?
 
sandusky said:
Adam and Eve were free from original sin for a while, because sin entered the world with Adam’s transgression, so, that’s a poor comparison.

Are you saying that while Catholics must maintain that Mary was free of original sin, they are permitted to believe that she was guilty of committing personal sin?
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You’ve really got a bee in your bonnet about this, haven’t you. Alright, I give you permission. Clutter up the OP’s question with talk about the Immaculate Conception all you want.
 
VociMike said:
You’ve really got a bee in your bonnet about this, haven’t you. Alright, I give you permission. Clutter up the OP’s question with talk about the Immaculate Conception all you want.
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Is the Catholic permitted to believe that Mary committed personal sin?

If not, why not?

If so, why so?
 
sandusky said:
Is the Catholic permitted to believe that Mary committed personal sin?

If not, why not?

If so, why so?
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No, it is dogma that she did not. Not that this is in any way related to your earlier posts. You just seem to want to stir up the waters and derail another person’s thread.
 
VociMike said:
No, it is dogma that she did not. Not that this is in any way related to your earlier posts. You just seem to want to stir up the waters and derail another person’s thread.
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The OP asked how Mary’s sinlessness affects one’s salvation; answer: the Catholic must believe the dogma as part of the gospel according to the RCC.
 
sandusky said:
Mike, certainly you believe that Mary never committed a sin, don’t you?
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She never committed sin in her life. Mary was to prepare the coming of the Messiah, the Mother of Lord Jesus Christ must be holy and perfect. Anything that is defiled is offensive to God. Since we both acknowledge that Jesus is True God, and True Man, God saved Mary and preserve her from committing any sin.

She accepted God’s will but saying, “Be it Done Unto me according to Your Word.” Mary, who is full of grace, and is truly blessed amongst women remain faithful to God.
I believe that the idea of Mary as being free from personal sin is inherent in the IC dogma.
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Let us use reasoning to explain why Mary had to be remain a virgin.

When Moses meet God in Mt. Sinai, God told him take the sandal of your feet for the very ground is Holy.

When the Ark of the Covenant, which contain the Word of God, Manna, and Aaron’s rod is revered by the Jews. No one is allowed to touch it or they will surely die.

Let’s fast forward, when Archangel Gabriel came to Mary. He told her that she was going to conceived and bear a son; the Messiah. His name is Jesus because he will save people from their sins.

When Mary said she accepted God’s will. Her commitment to God remain after the birth of Jesus. If she had sin, she would have broke her vow to God. In the Scripture themselves, Mary did not at all commit any sin. She remain obedient and faithful.
 
CuriousInIL said:
But the folks that say this would say there are a number of clear biblical passages that exempt Jesus, but none that exempt Mary.
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The refer them back to putting new wine into old bottles, or as I heard wine-skins.

Sometimes it doesn’t matter what we say, there will always be an if,and,but.
sandusky said:
How do you know Jesus had no sin?
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Because then He wouldn’t have been a perfect Sacrifice, He would have been tarnished by sin, when only a pure spotless lamb (Lamb of God) Son, could have satisfied God the Father.

Emmanuel means God among us, are you trying to tell me God sinned ?

A sinful person couldn’t wipe away the stain of original sin, otherwise maybe Adam should have been crucified, instead of Jesus.
 
sandusky said:
The OP asked how Mary’s sinlessness affects one’s salvation; answer: the Catholic must believe the dogma as part of the gospel according to the RCC.
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a dogma is a truth that has been made known by the Teaching authority of the Church. No Catholic can go to Heaven unless he consents to all of the Truth taught by the Church.

For the non-Catholics:
People who have never had an opportunity to hear of Christ and his Church—and those Christians whose minds have been closed to the truth of the Church by their conditioning—are not necessarily cut off from God’s mercy. Vatican II phrases the doctrine in these terms:
Code: 
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences—those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
Code: 
Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).
However,
They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14).

src
 
Ginger2 said:
How would Mary’s having committed a minor sin effect Jesus’ mission? My salvation?
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You ask a very interesting question that has caused me to ponder. As VociMike pointed out, we can only speculate about what difference Mary’s sinlessness makes. So what I offer is my own non-authoritative personal speculation.

Mary was given a mission that started with Gabriel’s request for her to be the mother of God the Son. Forgetting for a moment the issue of God needing a sinless vessel for the incarnation, think only of Mary’s free will. If she were tainted by actual sin, she might have rejected God’s call out of selfishness or self-preservation (she was agreeing to be a single mother at a time when this situation was punishable by death). Those of us who are sinners have the constant battle of ‘my will vs. God’s will’ to deal with. She was preserved from this struggle by being sinless, and never made any decisions that defied God’s will.

Following that same logic, I considered all the other aspects of Mary’s mission which continues even today. Her sinlessness must have equipped her to fulfill all aspects of her mission perfectly (which was and is oriented to assist Jesus’ mission). It made her most unlikely to fail by the misuse of her own will. Her sinlessness kept her keenly focused on the will of God while:
  • She raised and nurtured the sinless Son.
  • She is presumed to have lived with Him until He began his public ministry. As any family is the incubator to ‘form’ its members, she lived in Jesus’ ‘incubator’, influencing, teaching and forming Him as a young man.
  • She was loyal to her Son through His torture and death.
  • She stayed with the apostles after Jesus’ death, and spent the days until Pentecost joined with them in prayer. Tradition tells us that she lived with John the Beloved Apostle until the end of her life, and that they traveled spreading the gospel. She spent the remainder of her life on earth working for her Son.
  • And as Catholics, we believe she has been glorified in Heaven as the Queen mentioned in Rev 12. Jewish kings always had a queen who was their mother, not one of their wives. She fulfills this role perfectly for the perfect successor of David.
  • Finally, she continues today as the Lord’s greatest evangelist on earth. Many are the stories of her apparitions and interventions to save God’s children and draw them to her Son.
I’ll repeat that this is all speculation, but my theory is that sinlessness made her fully capable of doing everything exactly as God planned it. Sin is rebellion. What difference would her rebellion have made to your salvation? God has put one of our race in charge of fulfilling this elaborate mission, and has enabled her to do it perfectly. She teaches us by her example that holiness is a matter of conforming your will totally to God’s will, and preferring nothing except God. She shows us that it is possible for a mere human to fulfill Jesus’ command to “be perfect, as your Father is perfect”. She shows us the way to heaven by showing us the ordinary, daily, sometimes boring details of submitting to God. Holiness is what we are called to strive for, and God gave us a human example of how to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). She takes nothing away from Jesus’ saving action, but always draws us close to Him, showing us how to love Him and to accept and obey Him fully.
 
Failing to believe a dogma of the faith “may” be sinful.

From the CCC:

The dogmas of the faith

“88 The Church’s Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.”

On Faith and Unbelief:

2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith: Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.
 
clmowry said:
Failing to believe a dogma of the faith “may” be sinful.

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.
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It is a sin and a mortal one.

(from wiki)

In Catholicism, a dogmatic definition is an infallible statement published by a pope or an ecumenical council concerning a matter of faith or morals, the belief in which the Catholic Church requires of all Christians (although Christians who are not Catholic do not recognize the Catholic Church’s authority in such matters).

Contrary to the stereotype that Catholics think that everything that the pope says is infallible (or that the pope is impeccable, unable to sin), dogmatic definitions by popes are in fact very rare. Among them are Ineffabilis Deus, the definition by Pope Pius IX in 1854 concerning the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and Munificentissimus Deus, the definition by Pope Pius XII in 1950 concerning the Assumption of Mary.

The Immaculate Conception is a dogma. It is a DOGMATIC FACT is that she is also sinless.
 
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