This passage has to be understood in it’s context. It is not speaking about “all” people, as there were many righteous people before, during, and after Jesus. If you look where this quote came from in Psalms, you can see it is talking about fools, that say in there heart “there is no God”.
Sandusky has a Calvanistic approach to salvation, in that salvation is imputed, and not infused. A person’s sins are “covered”, not removed. He cannot recognize in Mary the fulfillment of God’s intention that Jesus became human so that humankind could become divine. Jesus does not want white covered piles of dung in heaven, but transformed vessels of His glory. Mary was an example of this transformation, because she was born without original sin,and persisted to refrain from sin throughout her life. Therefore she is called “our life and our hope”. She exemplifies what we all hope to achieve in an eternal dwelling with her blessed Son, and our hopes fulfilled.
These questions about the immaculate conception are derailing the thread. The OP wants to know what difference it would make to salvation if Mary sinned. No one has addressed that she could have sinned after giving birth to Jesus.
I agree that it would be possible for God to incarnate in a sinless manner any way He chose. However, His plan for humanity is that we be perfect, as He is perfect. Nothing unclean can enter heaven, so we cannot be sinful and dwell in His presence. He used Mary to demonstrate this to us. In Mary, we see that the righteousness He brings is not just imputed, but actual.
I disagree. I am only up to post 86, but I have yet to see a post addressing the OP’s original question. I think it is “if Mary sinned (even after Jesus was born), what difference would it make in salvation history?”
Wouldn’t it be more genuine to say “I don’t know”?
She didn’t ask what we believe. She asked WHY!!! I hope she does keep asking it!Asking the same question with repetitive redundancy will not get a change in the answers. What is, is what is…and it will never change. What I have told you, and shown you is what I and Catholics believe, and will believe all the way to the grave and well beyond…
You know, that is a common response to the writings of Paul!
I think it is about Luther and the reformers. It is they who cooked up the Sola Scriptura notion, and passed it on as a legacy. Jesus established a Church, not a book. The Church produced the book. Nothing in the book contradicts what Jesus taught His Apostles, or the faith they handed down to us.
Fortunately this is not true about christian doctrine when it pertains to Mary, or anything else. If it were, you wouldn’t even have a bible!
Not trying to lift up anything, Rob, just pointing out the facts.
Their writings are not all meaningless.
RobHom said:
It was answered in post 47: He did this not because it was necessary, but because it was most fitting.
I think it is about Luther and the reformers. It is they who cooked up the Sola Scriptura notion, and passed it on as a legacy. Jesus established a Church, not a book. The Church produced the book. Nothing in the book contradicts what Jesus taught His Apostles, or the faith they handed down to us.
Fortunately this is not true about christian doctrine when it pertains to Mary, or anything else. If it were, you wouldn’t even have a bible!
You are taking these passages out of context. You need to go back and look at where “it is written”. He is talking about the godless. Those who walk uprightly with God are righteous. Take, for example, the parents of John the Baptist.
No, Sandusky, it says that all inherited the consequence of sin, which is death. It is the consequence that we receive from Adam, not the sin itself. This occurred until Moses because Moses brought God’s revelation, by which men could avoid sin. Even over those who had not sinned indicates that not all were guilty of personal sin.The words of scripture must be spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2).Romans 5:12-14
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 NEVERTHELESS death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.Men died prior to the giving of the law because they sinned in Adam.
No, Sandusky, it says that all inherited the consequence of sin, which is death. It is the consequence that we receive from Adam, not the sin itself. This occurred until Moses because Moses brought God’s revelation, by which men could avoid sin. Even over those who had not sinned indicates that not all were guilty of personal sin.The words of scripture must be spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2).Romans 5:12-14
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 NEVERTHELESS death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.Men died prior to the giving of the law because they sinned in Adam.
Well, yes, ultimately all good comes from God. But, God chose to work through human beings in order to bring salvation into the world. He entered the world “born of a woman”. He chose to take His flesh from her flesh. He sanctified it in advance, so it would be Holy to this use.He got that from Himself.
So Mary is the fulfillment of God’s intention that Jesus become human—from where are you getting this?
That is neither the consistent teaching of scripture, nor of the historical church.
Your church rejects that as well guanophore; witness your sacrament of confession and penance, and the training of priests to administer said sacrament, and the church’s creation of purgatory—the place of purgation, and of your final payment for your sins; where is your common sense, guanophore?
I agree, Paul’s words are clear. And they clearly don’t say that “all have sinned in Adam”. Paul would not write such gobbledly-gook.
CALVINISM? Those guys still exist? Wow.
Paul says that by Adam’s sin, death spread to all men; and the reason Paul gives for that spreading of death by Adam’s sin?—**because ALL SINNED (v12). That occurred “in Adam,” as a representative; thus the comparison of Adam with Christ as representative of those who believe in Him being righteous, “in Him;” this is seen in the “so also,” or “so then,” statements of vv 12a, 18a, 19a.
So Catholic baptism washes away death—the consequence of Adam’s sin—and not the stain of the sin itself?
The law was not given so that men could avoid sin; it was given so that men, by their
That is not what Paul is saying, guanophore.
But not in their womb, their flesh. Not nourished by their milk. Not rocked to sleep.And yet, God dwelt among sinful men, in the same room, together with them.