The Virgin Mary

[sandusky]

But not in their womb, their flesh. Not nourished by their milk. Not rocked to sleep.

The church states that Mary’s “sinlessness,” is not necessary, for Christ’s sinlessness,
but fitting, and that you must believe that Mary is sinless, necessarily. :whacky:

 

[HailMary]

But not in their womb, their flesh. Not nourished by their milk. Not rocked to sleep.

Amen. The BLESSED Virgin Mary is the ONLY person who can say, “flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone” as Adam said to Eve.

Its amazing in the New Covenant: Adam came from Eve in the Old and Jesus came from Mary in the New. Its beautiful how things have been reversed. Suffering and work were not redemptive but now they are.

There was a reversal in knowledge when it came to the choirs of angels: When the son of Man ascended to Heaven, it was the lower ranked angels that first saw Him.

In the Old, if a clean touched an unclean, he could not help him, but not so in the New.

 

[guanophore]

Was not this statement of being free in the context of Mary? The context for being free can be found in John 8:31-32 in which being a disciple of Christ sets a person free.

I think it was used in the context of accepting the teaching of Jesus, of which the doctrines of Mary are some.

Truth is not determined by how many believe but if it corresponds to reality. The reality is that there is no evidence in scripture for many of the catholic claims about Mary. Look up all the passages in scripture about Mary and you will find what i have been saying is true.

They are true from your point of view, of course. You do not believe what the successors of the Apostles taught about Mary, so you do not see the seeds of these teachings in the scripture. On the other hand, you do accept the teaching of the successors about the Trinity, so you can see the seeds of that. Mormons do not, because they don’t accept the teachings.

Let me ask you: Does you church consider anything written in the 2nd or 3rd centuries inspired-inerrant? If so, what would it be?

that Mary is the Theotokos, or God Bearer, because she bore God the Son in her womb.

 

[guanophore]

No…its not false… But what it is …is something that literally destroys the silly notion of “sola scriptura”, “saved by faith alone” and all the rest of the heretical nonsense…and simply because James clearly makes the statement that "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!!! And thats what y’all can’t handle…DEAD…DEAD…COMPLETELY DEAD

I get a real kick out of this…21st century “nobodies” declaring the writings of a God Inspired man …to be false… Go figure.

Sorry sport…your opinion is just “weightless”.

You are making yourself look silly and arrogant RobHom. He is not talking about the epistle of James.

 

[rlg94086]

These questions about the immaculate conception are derailing the thread. The OP wants to know what difference it would make to salvation if Mary sinned. No one has addressed that she could have sinned after giving birth to Jesus.

Yes, one reason that Mary was immaculately conceived was so that Jesus could take flesh from her flesh, and it would be pure. The church teaches us that the merits of Christ’s sacrifice were applied to Mary in advance, so that she could receive her savior prior to His conception. She was “full of grace”,a nd therefore, could not sin.

Each of us can also be “full of grace” and avoid sin.

LOL guanafore…check the posts again. Here is the second post, from me, answering the question. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2631967&postcount=2

 

[guanophore]

Was not this statement of being free in the context of Mary? The context for being free can be found in John 8:31-32 in which being a disciple of Christ sets a person free.

I think it was used in the context of accepting the teaching of Jesus, of which the doctrines of Mary are some. Mary was the very first disciple of Jesus, submitting to Him before He was incarnated. He set her free.

Truth is not determined by how many believe but if it corresponds to reality. The reality is that there is no evidence in scripture for many of the catholic claims about Mary. Look up all the passages in scripture about Mary and you will find what i have been saying is true.

They are true from your point of view, of course. You do not believe what the successors of the Apostles taught about Mary, so you do not see the seeds of these teachings in the scripture. On the other hand, you do accept the teaching of the successors about the Trinity, so you can see the seeds of that. Mormons do not, because they don’t accept the teachings.

Let me ask you: Does you church consider anything written in the 2nd or 3rd centuries inspired-inerrant? If so, what would it be?

that Mary is the Theotokos, or God Bearer, because she bore God the Son in her womb.

 

[rlg94086]

Quote Ginger:
Original sin is not an act - it is a human condition. The only time Eve is included in this is thru “by propagation” Adam can’t reproduce without Eve.
Quote Robhom:
Wrong. Eve did not have “original sin”. When God created her, she was sinless. She sinned of her free will, as did Adam. Their offspring, and the succeeding generations had “original sin”.

Again you have misunderstood. I did not say Eve had original sin. We are talking about the transmission of original sin:

The only time Eve is included in (the transmitting of OS) is “by propagation” Adam can’t reproduce without Eve.

Both the Bible and the Catechism state:

403 …ADAM’S SIN and the fact that HE HAS TRANSMITTED TO US a sin with which we are all born afflicted
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (singular) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men (mankind)

You aren’t proving anything. Yes, Adam transmitted sin “to us.” ALL OF MANKIND - including Eve. It is spread by propogation. Just in case you missed Biology 101, Eve also can’t reproduce without Adam.

Regardless, why do we care how Original Sin is transmitted, when it comes to talking about the Virgin Mary?

 

[guanophore]

No…its not false… But what it is …is something that literally destroys the silly notion of “sola scriptura”, “saved by faith alone” and all the rest of the heretical nonsense…and simply because James clearly makes the statement that "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!!! And thats what y’all can’t handle…DEAD…DEAD…COMPLETELY DEAD

I get a real kick out of this…21st century “nobodies” declaring the writings of a God Inspired man …to be false… Go figure.

Sorry sport…your opinion is just “weightless”.

You are making yourself look silly and arrogant RobHom. He is not talking about the epistle of James.

So then…what you’re trying to say in a strange way is that you “have the mind of God”??? Or are the “voices” telling you this?

This sounds downright mocking, RobHom, and is not a good witness.

 

[Ginger2]

rig,
I really don’t remember who brought up Original Sin, or why.

I am still waiting for a response from Rob concerning:

What, therefore, did not exist, the Scripture [Gnostic false doctrine] was unable to mention; and by not mentioning it, it has given us a clear proof that there was no such thing: for if there had been, the Scripture would have mentioned it. (Tertullian, Against Hermogenes, ch 20)

AND:

“I do not admit what you advance of your own apart from Scripture.” (Tertullian, The Flesh of Christ, ch 6; ch 7)

On the surface this doesn’t look related either, but rob has challenged me to prove something that isn’t. So I am responding to his challenge using quotes from Tertullian.

 

[jmcrae]

Guanophore,

Thank you for addressing my question.

So are you saying that it is possible for anyone to live a sinless life and they must achieve that goal before they can enter heaven?

Yes, before we are fit to enter Heaven, we must have abandoned all of our sinful thoughts and habits. For most of us, this will occur after a long and painful period of purification.

There are some (especially little children who have never had any opportunity to develop sinful habits after baptism) who can go directly to Heaven without a period of purification.

There are also those who willingly undergo purification during this life, by attending Confession and Holy Mass as frequently as possible, by consciously avoiding sin, and by continually building up habits of virtue - for example, turning to prayer whenever they are tempted to think evil thoughts, or turning their hands towards good work whenever they are tempted to indulge themselves in some kind of addictive behaviour.

My understanding is that we will be perfected when Jesus takes us to heaven - in a whirlwind.

That “whirlwind” is analogous to the period of purification that we all must undergo. Obviously, when we get to Heaven, none of us will be tempted to commit sin, and the reason we won’t be tempted is that we will have eradicated all of our bad habits and base tendencies.

 

[Ginger2]

I do appreciate your sharing with me. And perhaps what I am about say belongs on another thread, but

“…a long and painful period of purification.”
Rom. 4:8, "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”.
John 19:30 “It is finished.” If purgatory exists, then it is not finished.

“…those who willingly undergo purification during this life, by attending Confession and Holy Mass…”
Gal. 2:16, “…by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

“There are some …who have never…develop sinful habits…who can go directly to Heaven without a period of purification.”
John 14:6, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Then Jesus is not the only way to the Father?

 

[jmcrae]

The church states that Mary’s “sinlessness,” is not necessary, for Christ’s sinlessness,
but fitting, and that you must believe that Mary is sinless, necessarily. :whacky:

In the Catholic Church, we believe things because they are true: not because they are philosophically or logically “necessary.”

It is not philosophically necessary to Christianity that Mary be without sin - it just happens to be the fact of the matter, that Mary was (as it turns out) without sin. This is the gift of honour that was given to her by her Son, Jesus Christ, in obedience to the commandment to “honour thy father and thy mother.”

I don’t know why that’s so hard to understand.

 

[ricmat]

John 19:30 “It is finished.” If purgatory exists, then it is not finished.

“There are some …who have never…develop sinful habits…who can go directly to Heaven without a period of purification.”
John 14:6, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Then Jesus is not the only way to the Father?

“It is finished” applies to the 4th cup of the passover, which Jesus specifically did NOT finish at the last supper. It was finished only when Jesus received sour wine (vinegar) while on the cross. “It is finished” has nothing to do with Purgatory. Scott Hahn has some excellent material on this subject (can’t find a link right now).

Jesus opened the gates of heaven for all mankind. So yes, he is the only way to the father. However, some choose not to walk through those gates, and some have never known Jesus (Moses, for example). Purgatory is a place to pay for the temporal effects of our sins, and to cleanse ourselves of desires which are not possible in heaven. Those who never developed such desires, and never sinned (babies) can go straight through the gates which Jesus opened without getting further purified. Are you saying that babies need to profess faith in Jesus and read the bible before they get in?

 

[jmcrae]

I do appreciate your sharing with me. And perhaps what I am about say belongs on another thread, but

“…a long and painful period of purification.”
Rom. 4:8, "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”.
John 19:30 “It is finished.” If purgatory exists, then it is not finished.

What is it that was finished on the Cross?

Not my salvation, since I wasn’t even born until more than 1900 years after the Crucifixion, and I have not yet died. My salvation will be completed when I enter into Heaven, and not a moment before then.

When Jesus said, “It is finished” He wasn’t referring to our salvation, but rather, to His ultimate Passover Sacrifice. The sacrifice of Christ for our sins was completed, but we do not become “saved” until after we have entered into that Sacrifice and partaken of it, through the living of the Christian life.

“…those who willingly undergo purification during this life, by attending Confession and Holy Mass…”
Gal. 2:16, “…by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”

The Sacraments are not “works of the Law” - they are the works of Jesus Christ.

Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

It is only because Christ died on the Cross, thus providing us with the Sacrifice for our sins, that the Sacraments are even possible, in the first place.

“There are some …who have never…develop sinful habits…who can go directly to Heaven without a period of purification.”
John 14:6, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Then Jesus is not the only way to the Father?

They enter into Christ through Baptism. I was not referring to people who were never baptized - we have no idea what happens to them, since as far as we can tell, they are still the property of the Devil because of Original Sin - but it is within reason that God would provide them with a way to get to Heaven that we know nothing about, since God wants everyone to be saved, of course.

But, if someone is baptized (brought into Christ) and then never sins before his death, he would go directly to Heaven - he would be perfect in Christ.

 

[Ginger2]

“…but it is within reason that God would provide them with a way to get to Heaven that we know nothing about, …” Then you do not believe Jesus is the only way to heaven/salvation. How very, very sad.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[Ginger2]

All will be judged.

Those who are condemned will be judged by their deeds

Those who are saved will be judged by their faith in Christ Jesus.

Psalms 32

Happy the sinner whose fault is removed, whose sin is forgiven.

Happy those to whom the LORD imputes no guilt, in whose spirit is no deceit.

As long as I kept silent, my bones wasted away; I groaned all the day.

For day and night your hand was heavy upon me; my strength withered as in dry summer heat.

Then I declared my sin to you; my guilt I did not hide. I said, “I confess my faults to the LORD,” and you took away the guilt of my sin.

Thus should all your faithful pray in time of distress. Though flood waters threaten, they will never reach them.

You are my shelter; from distress you keep me; with safety you ring me round.

I will instruct you and show you the way you should walk, give you counsel and watch over you.

Do not be senseless like horses or mules; with bit and bridle their temper is curbed, else they will not come to you.

Many are the sorrows of the wicked, but love surrounds those who trust in the LORD.

Be glad in the LORD and rejoice, you just; exult, all you upright of heart.

 

[jmcrae]

“…but it is within reason that God would provide them with a way to get to Heaven that we know nothing about, …” Then you do not believe Jesus is the only way to heaven/salvation. How very, very sad.

Regardless of how we get to Heaven, it is Jesus who gives us the way, whatever it may be.

Jesus has given us the Sacraments. If we don’t make use of the Sacraments, then we are not following Jesus’ way.

But for those who can’t make use of the Sacraments, perhaps Jesus provides a different way. This is just a possibility, due to the fact that we know that God wants everyone to be saved. It’s certainly not something I’m gambling my own immortal soul on, though. (Other people are free to gamble their souls on whatever they want - I am not their keeper.)

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Absolutely. But it is not merely the calling of His name that saves us (see Matthew 7:21), but full obedience to His commandments, including those that He has given to His Church.

 

[VociMike]

“…but it is within reason that God would provide them with a way to get to Heaven that we know nothing about, …” Then you do not believe Jesus is the only way to heaven/salvation. How very, very sad.

Please, stop the blatantly phony tsk, tsk’ing. Jesus can offer salvation to people in whatever ways he chooses, which is exactly what the phrase you quoted is saying.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Which in no way refutes the phrase you quoted.

 

[Ginger2]

Quote JM: “Regardless of how we get to Heaven, it is Jesus who gives us the way, whatever it may be.”

Jesus died so we can be forgiven. But I think I understand what you mean. I believe the same way. God is not limited because of our limitations.

Quote Voci: “blatantly phony tsk, tsk’ing.Jesus can offer salvation in whatever way he chooses”

1. When I “sad”, I was sad, I meant that with all my heart. Doesn’t it make you feel deeply saddened when someone is looking for another way to heaven besides Jesus? It does me. I’m glad JM cleared that up. I think we are much closer in theology then one can tell from our ill attempts to express our faith.
2. And He chose to give us salvation thru his sacrifice on the cross. The Bible says this was the only way.
   Hebrews 9:22 … without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

“and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice…” (Romans 3:23-26)

 

[sandusky]

jmcrae:

In the Catholic Church, we believe things because they are true: not because they are philosophically or logically “necessary.”

It is not philosophically necessary to Christianity that Mary be without sin - it just happens to be the fact of the matter, that Mary was (as it turns out) without sin. This is the gift of honour that was given to her by her Son, Jesus Christ, in obedience to the commandment to “honour thy father and thy mother.”

I don’t know why that’s so hard to understand.

It’s not hard to understand at all; something initially not true is finally declared to be true, and one sees yet another addition made to the gospel, and yet another change made to the faith once for all delivered to the saints.

We all know what Paul told the Galatian church concerning a different gospel—reject it, and the ones peddling it.