The Virgin Mary

[Ginger2]

“She eternally says to us ‘do whatever He tells you’.”

Well, Jesus tells us
"…when thou prayest, …pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. " Mat 6:6

“…pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, …” (Mat 6:9) (Luk 11:2)

"Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you. " (John 15:16) (John 16:23)

“And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.” (Jhn 14:13)

Not one Bible verse does Jesus tell us to pray to Mary. Can you find even one statement where the Apostles or Early Church Fathers claim that Jesus said this? Iwould be interested in seeing it.

 

[Stephen_C]

“She eternally says to us ‘do whatever He tells you’.”

Well, Jesus tells us
"…when thou prayest, …pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. " Mat 6:6

“…pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, …” (Mat 6:9) (Luk 11:2)

"Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you. " (John 15:16) (John 16:23)

“And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.” (Jhn 14:13)

Not one Bible verse does Jesus tell us to pray to Mary. Can you find even one statement where the Church Fathers claim by Tradition that Jesus said this? Iwould be interested in seeing it.

I just have to shake my head when I hear stuff like this…Ginger take your blinders off please. This Christian family is very large. And we are here to help each other gain salvation…even our brothers and sisters who have gone before us…

 

[Ginger2]

If Mary tells you to do whatever Jesus tells you to do, why spend so much time doing it (praying) any other way?

Jesus said pray directly to God - Ask in Jesus’ name and it will be given According to God’s will If we believe.

To say ten Hail Mary’s for every one Our Father is out of line with what Jesus has taught us.

 

[Stephen_C]

If Mary tells you to do whatever Jesus tells you to do, why spend so much time doing it (praying) any other way?

Jesus said pray directly to God - Ask in Jesus’ name and it will be given According to God’s will If we believe.

To say ten Hail Mary’s for every one Our Father is out of line with what Jesus has taught us.

I do…I can multi task pray. When I pray the Rosary it takes me to another place away from this world. My prayers become more focused and the peace it gives me can not be explained with words. It just brings me more closer to Jesus. Anyway this is off subject I suppose…but one more thing…We Christians do not have to go this alone…It is not just Jesus and me…It is Jesus and his entire family (me included). We are to lift each other up and help each other on the way. And those who have gone before us They just don’t stop…They are still a part of his Family

 

[LilyM]

If Mary tells you to do whatever Jesus tells you to do, why spend so much time doing it (praying) any other way?

Jesus said pray directly to God - Ask in Jesus’ name and it will be given According to God’s will If we believe.

To say ten Hail Mary’s for every one Our Father is out of line with what Jesus has taught us.

So you only EVER pray the Our Father? After all, Jesus didn’t teach us any other prayer … not the ones we use in our church services, not even the Doxology (Glory Be).

He certainly never taught us to read the Bible - never even a word about having his disciples read scripture!!! Yet you’re happy to stray from His example there, aren’t you.

 

[Ginger2]

“So you only EVER pray the Our Father?”

Jesus said pray like this, not necessarily those exact words, but in that manner

Jesus was teaching the disciples how to pray and gave us a model for prayer.

Our Father who art in heaven
(We address our prayer to our heavenly Father)

Of course we should pray for one another, but we are wrong when we look to anyone other than God for help. The Lord is our help.

People think I have a give of intercessory prayer because God seems to always give me what I ask for. One of the gifts mention in the Bible is pray, but no one should look to anyone other than God for help.

When people started saying things like we know this or that because Ginger will be on her knees praying, I was horrified! I had to remind them that I have no power or special influence over God. And neither does the Virgin Mary.

Christians need to spend more time talking directly to God. He wants to have a close personal relationship with each of us. In the Garden of Eden God spent time with Adam and Eve - not in prayer, but in person.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:

He sent Jesus so He could spend one-on-one time with us also. God is showing us He wants a close personal relationship. How can you be close to God if you think sending a messenger is better than speaking directly with Him?

 

[LilyM]

"…pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, …" (Mat 6:9) (Luk 11:2)

I don’t see no reference to ‘pray these or similar words’ there - you’re reading stuff into it that isn’t written there, Ginger2.

 

[Ginger2]

LilyM,

I don’t know what you’re talking about. Jesus gave us a model for prayer. Are you saying we have to always pray exactly the words he used? Because if you are, then I why do Catholics recite other prayers?

 

[Stephen_C]

“So you only EVER pray the Our Father?”

Jesus said pray like this, not necessarily those exact words, but in that manner

Jesus was teaching the disciples how to pray and gave us a model for prayer.

Our Father who art in heaven
(We address our prayer to our heavenly Father)

Of course we should pray for one another, but we are wrong when we look to anyone other than God for help. The Lord is our help.

People think I have a give of intercessory prayer because God seems to always give me what I ask for. One of the gifts mention in the Bible is pray, but no one should look to anyone other than God for help.

When people started saying things like we know this or that because Ginger will be on her knees praying, I was horrified! I had to remind them that I have no power or special influence over God. And neither does the Virgin Mary.

Christians need to spend more time talking directly to God. He wants to have a close personal relationship with each of us. In the Garden of Eden God spent time with Adam and Eve - not in prayer, but in person.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:

He sent Jesus so He could spend one-on-one time with us also. God is showing us He wants a close personal relationship. How can you be close to God if you think sending a messenger is better than speaking directly with Him?

Like I said before…we are family…My relationships with my brothers and sisters do not detract or take away from my relationship with Jesus… I come from a small Catholic family (7 kids) My love for my brothers and sister did not and does not and never did detract for the love I gave my parents…Same thing with God’s Family…we are better as a whole…helping each other out along the way. I don’t know what else I can say here. Not too gifted with the written word…but we are strongest when we are a whole then when we are one.

 

[Tomster]

Emnity comes from the greek word ay-baw which means “Hatred”. I’m a sinner and I HATE the devil. Are you saying the if Mary were a sinner that she could not have hated satan?

The first and fundamental promise of the Redeemer, correctly called the protoevangelium, was made in Paradise to our first parents after their fall. The redemption is the deliverance of mankind from the dominion which the devil obtained through his victory over Adam by means of the temptation of the woman. Therefore it is here announced through the promise about “the seed of the woman.” This means a future Son of the ancestress, and at the same time and in the first place a mother, who is prefigured by Eve and who produces a Son without the seed of a man. Together with His mother this Son must stand in perpetual and INVINCIBLE ENMITY to the devil and crush his head, i.e., overthrow his rule, while the devil can only lie in wait. Face to face with the first couple, in whom mankind has fallen under the dominion of the devil, there is thus placed one of their descendants, or rather, a new couple, proceeding from them, in whom and by whom, this dominion will be broken. It is also indicated that the head of the serpent will be crushed at the very moment when the heel of the woman is wounded, and precisely on that account.

The following is the text from the Vulgate: Inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem, et semen tuum et semen illius; ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo ejus (Genesis 3:15). In the Hebrew text the same verb suf (= inhiare, infestare) is used where the Vulgate uses conterere and insidiare in this passage. In the first instance, the word must mean, in the context, “a victorious pursuit,” just as the “enmity” is an invincible enmity on the part of the woman and the “seed of the woman.” Otherwise no effective punishment would be inflicted on the serpent.

The Latin text uses the feminine form ipsa. The Hebrew text, at least the present day one, gives the masculine form for ejus. Thus it indicates, not the woman, but the seed of the woman as the conqueror of the serpent. Since the invincible enmity against the serpent is represented as common to both, the victory must also be common to both in one way or another; and this is shown by the text which has the obvious purpose of making the punishment of the serpent complete, since a woman is the instrument of his defeat, as the first woman is the instrument of his victory.

 

[Stephen_C]

Just one more small comment…or thought. Why does it seem to be either/or with some folks? Why can they not see this is both/and?

 

[japhy]

If Mary tells you to do whatever Jesus tells you to do, why spend so much time doing it (praying) any other way?

Jesus said pray directly to God - Ask in Jesus’ name and it will be given According to God’s will If we believe.

To say ten Hail Mary’s for every one Our Father is out of line with what Jesus has taught us.

May I ask what you think the “Hail Mary” prayer is about? The first half of the prayer is directly from Scripture (Luke chapter 1) – we are speaking the words of Gabriel the archangel and Elizabeth, Mary’s cousin. The second half of prayer asks Holy Mary (set apart by God to be the…) Mother of God (because she conceived and gave birth to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, true God and true Man) to pray for us now and especially at the hour of our death.

What is the problem here? If Mary were alive on Earth today, would it be rude or idolatrous of me to walk up to her and speak to her the words of Scripture that were addressed to her, and then to ask her to pray for me? Who I am asking her to pray to? Jesus Christ, the fruit of her womb, her Lord and Savior and God, just as He is mine.

So is the problem that, to you, Mary is dead? But even death cannot separate us from the love of Christ (cf. Rom 8:35-39), and God is “not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to Him.” (Luke 20:38) Therefore, Mary is living to God (and Catholics believe this especially in Mary’s case), as are all those who have died in Christ. So we’re not “summoning the dead”, we’re speaking to those who now live in Christ past death.

 

[Tomster]

“So you only EVER pray the Our Father?”

Jesus said pray like this, not necessarily those exact words, but in that manner

Jesus was teaching the disciples how to pray and gave us a model for prayer.

Our Father who art in heaven
(We address our prayer to our heavenly Father)

Of course we should pray for one another, but we are wrong when we look to anyone other than God for help. The Lord is our help.

People think I have a give of intercessory prayer because God seems to always give me what I ask for. One of the gifts mention in the Bible is pray, but no one should look to anyone other than God for help.

When people started saying things like we know this or that because Ginger will be on her knees praying, I was horrified! I had to remind them that I have no power or special influence over God. And neither does the Virgin Mary.

Christians need to spend more time talking directly to God. He wants to have a close personal relationship with each of us. In the Garden of Eden God spent time with Adam and Eve - not in prayer, but in person.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:

He sent Jesus so He could spend one-on-one time with us also. God is showing us He wants a close personal relationship. How can you be close to God if you think sending a messenger is better than speaking directly with Him?

It has to do with the Communion of Saints Ginger.

 

[Tomster]

Like I said before…we are family…My relationships with my brothers and sisters do not detract or take away from my relationship with Jesus… I come from a small Catholic family (7 kids) My love for my brothers and sister did not and does not and never did detract for the love I gave my parents…Same thing with God’s Family…we are better as a whole…helping each other out along the way. I don’t know what else I can say here. Not too gifted with the written word…but we are strongest when we are a whole then when we are one.

Stephen,

“Not to gifted?” Well said, indeed!

Tomster

Sorry, Japhy. Just read your post. Excellent!

 

[Good_Fella]

Ginger, when we recite one set of the Rosary, we include the ‘Our Father’ and glorify the Holy Trinity five times.

We Catholics do not pray to Mary, but ask her to pray for us. When we say the ‘Hail Mary’ we pronounce these words: “Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners.” I have spoken to many Protestants who have owned that they have asked their pastors to pray for them. I would imagine that the mother of Jesus would have more influence with her Son than would any other human being. Mary intercedes on our behalf in heaven where she beholds the Beatific Vision. Her prayers for us are directed to God the Father in the name of our Lord. Keep in mind that Jesus worked his first miracle at the wedding feast in Cana through Mary’s intercession. He listens to his mother more than to any other creature of God. Mary would refuse to hear our petitions if we asked for anything that is not in our Lord’s name. :yup:

Ask yourself whether you have read the following scriptural verses aloud:

“Hail , full of grace, the Lord is with you.” :angel1:
{Luke 1:28}
‘Hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you.’

“Do not be afraid, Mary. For you have found favour with God.”
{Luke 1:30}
“From now on all generations shall call me blessed.”
{Luke 1:48}
‘Blessed are you amongst women.’

“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.”
{Luke 1:35}
“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
{Luke 1:42}
‘And blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.’

If you have recited these passages aloud, then you have said the first half of the ‘Hail Mary’. If not, then return above and do so. Now, that wasn’t so bad, was it? The first half of the ‘Hail Mary’ consists of addressing Mary in the words of the angel Gabriel. Let us not suggest that God’s heavenly messenger had committed blasphemy in his greeting. This part of the prayer also acknowledges what grace Almighty God has bestowed on Mary and thus praises Him for what only He can do for us if we open ourselves to the Father. {“My soul does magnify the Lord!”} We conclude the first half by professing our faith that Mary’s child, Jesus, is indeed the Son of God. So far we are not praying to Mary as we directly pray to God. We are simply quoting and citing the Scriptures. This is in a sense praying to God the Father, but not in the formula prescribed by Jesus in his Sermon on the Mount. If we are to recite only the ‘Our Father’ when addressing God, then what good is speaking to our heavenly Father in our own words or pious forms of expressions? Personally, I feel closest to God when I recite the Psalms aloud, which are in fact 150 prayers, the number of ‘Hail Marys’ in the original three sets of the Rosary.

Let us conclude the scriptural prayer ‘Hail Mary’ by reciting aloud the following verses from the Holy Bible:

“And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.”
{Luke 1:43-44}

Then Bethsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for [his brother] Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right. “There is one small favour I would ask of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.” “Ask it, my mother,” the king said to her, “for I will not refuse you.”
{1Kings 2:19-20}

When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
{John 2:3}

‘Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.’

We have not prayed to Mary, but have asked her to pray for us. This entire prayer either quotes the scriptures or alludes to their spiritual significance in God’s eternal plan of our salvation. When Mary does intercede for us at the right hand of her Son as our Queen Mother and the advocate of the Church, she sometimes says the Lord’s Prayer. She recited the ‘Our Father’ together with the three shepherd children of Fatima for the conversion of sinners and in reparation for all the sins committed against the Sacred Heart of her divine Son. When we say the ‘Hail Mary’ we are essentially asking Mary not only to pray for us, but to pray with us to the Father through the Son. Like the child in Elizabeth’s womb, we should leap for joy at the sound of her voice, because she brings us Jesus.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Tomster]

LilyM,

I don’t know what you’re talking about. Jesus gave us a model for prayer. Are you saying we have to always pray exactly the words he used? Because if you are, then I why do Catholics recite other prayers?

Ginger2,

Just a brief meditation for your consideration.

The virtue of religion is perfected by the gift of piety. Religion considers God as a Master, and man as a servant: piety sees in God a Father, and in man, His child. By religion we recognize that we are a part of God’s domain; by piety we know ourselves to be members of His family.

Piety was unknown among th pagans and little known among the Jews. It has been developed only in the religion of Christ. To His disciples Jesus frequently spoke of the Father; He commanded them: "When you pray, say: “Our Father.” And so, thereafter, men understood with what filial dispositions they were to go to God, to this God who through His Son had made them partakers of His nature and who saw in them brothers of His first-born.

The spirit of piety is one of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit, who in His unspeakable communications causes us to call out from the depths of our heart: “Abba, Father!” (Romans 8:15) Can it be doubted that the divine Spirit accorded this gift in all its perfection to His Immaculate Spouse? Mary saw herself as the well beloved daughter of God, surrounded by Him with unlimited tenderness, guarded with constant solicitude, favorably heard over and above all her prevision; she could not fail to see in Him a Father more infinitely more loving than any earthly father. And, if she never lost sight of the infinite distance which separated her from Him, neither did she ever lose sight of the infinite love which brought Him close to her.

From the time of the Incarnation, the filial piety of the Blessed Virgin must have grown marvelously. This mystery showed her that she was not only a well beloved daughter of God, but THE well beloved, the only daughter of God, elevated to an intimacy with Him which surpassed even that of the blessed spirits. And then, her conversations with Jesus during the thirty years of hidden life were to make her, by a sort of divine sympathy, a direct participant in the filial piety of the incarnate Son toward the Father. For what could these conversations have concerned, if not the Father, the love of the Father, the Providence of the Father, the glory and desires of the Father? How they must have prayed in the house of Nazereth.

In its fullest sense, piety comprises all the sentiments of the members of a family for one another: children for their parents, and parents for their children; children among themselves, and spouses for each other. In the supernatural order, piety generally designates only the sentiments of men in regard to the heavenly Father. Piety in Mary was much more comprehensive. She was the new Eve at the side of the new Adam; immaculate spouse of the Holy Spirit. And especially, she was Mother, true Mother of God and true Mother of men. Mary’s piety was unique, both by its intensity and by its extent.

Tomster

 

[kaycee]

Ginger, when we recite one set of the Rosary, we include the ‘Our Father’ and glorify the Holy Trinity five times.

We Catholics do not pray to Mary, but ask her to pray for us.

Well, many do pray to Mary.

When we say the ‘Hail Mary’ we pronounce these words: “Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners.” I have spoken to many Protestants who have owned that they have asked their pastors to pray for them.

Offcourse, the difference is the pastor has the ability to respond to the request.

I would imagine that the mother of Jesus would have more influence with her Son than would any other human being.

I imagine lotsa stuff too. It’s just not the basis of doctrine.

Mary intercedes on our behalf in heaven where she beholds the Beatific Vision. Her prayers for us are directed to God the Father in the name of our Lord. Keep in mind that Jesus worked his first miracle at the wedding feast in Cana through Mary’s intercession. He listens to his mother more than to any other creature of God.

How do you know that???

The first half of the ‘Hail Mary’ consists of addressing Mary in the words of the angel Gabriel. Let us not suggest that God’s heavenly messenger had committed blasphemy in his greetingIt IS just a greeting, what could be blasphemous? This part of the prayer also acknowledges what grace Almighty God has bestowed on Mary and thus praises Him for what only He can do for us if we open ourselves to the Father. .

Mary does not have the ability to hear millions of prayers at once. She is not a demi-goddess.

 

[Mannyfit75]

kaycee:

Mary does not have the ability to hear millions of prayers at once. She is not a demi-goddess.

I heard this argument before. Of course she* isn’t *a demi-goddess. She a creature, a created being.

The difference is that she is in Heaven. In heaven, there neither time nor space. It is outside of space and time.

You tend to preceive things of heaven as if they are similiar to earth.

The saints, my friend with God’s help can be granted certains gifts. The prophet Samuel who was dead fortold of a future of event when a king ask for his advise. It is apparent Samuel know something we did not know.

 

[justasking4]

I heard this argument before. Of course she* isn’t *a demi-goddess. She a creature, a created being.

The difference is that she is in Heaven. In heaven, there neither time nor space. It is outside of space and time.

You tend to preceive things of heaven as if they are similiar to earth.

The saints, my friend with God’s help can be granted certains gifts. The prophet Samuel who was dead fortold of a future of event when a king ask for his advise. It is apparent Samuel know something we did not know.

You are making assumptions about heaven and the nature of souls that are there. You don’t know if there is space or time in heaven for example. No on does. The scriptures are silent about these things. However, it has not stopped the catholic church to use speculations about these matters to rest its doctrines on in regards to Mary and the saints.

 

[Ginger2]

Quote: “the prophet Samuel who was dead fortold of a future of event when a king ask for his advise. It is apparent Samuel know something we did not know.”

Seeking advice from those who have past on is strictly forbidden.

Can you please cite the verse you are referring to. I believe you are mistaken of the text.