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jabelltulsa
Guest
Understood. And I apologize if I seemed a bit too critical.
- Status
G
Ginger2
Guest
No apology necessary -we’re on the same side - we both love Jesus!
I just wanted to make sure I was not misunderstood.
I just wanted to make sure I was not misunderstood.
J
jabelltulsa
Guest
I guess the point of my post got missed since I wasn’t very clear. My point is that of the thousands of protestants I have spoken to, only talk about Sacred Scripture in regards to my Salvation rather than the full Truth of God (as the Church that Christ established teaches).
Those who I have spoken to in my 36 years rarely speak of Mary. I have never been shown (by protestants) the beautiful relationship between Mary as the New Eve and the New Ark. Once this was explained to me in many wonderful sermons, I understand God better. These teachings are ONLY based in Sacred Scripture.
There is no change in God’s method. He demanded a perfect victim in the Old Testament (a perfect lamb), and he provided a Perfect Victim in the New (Christ) … He commissioned a perfect ark in the Old Testament, and he provided a perfect ark in the New (Mary - sinless). He made Adam (first creation of human) and Eve (second creation of human) in the Old, and He provides Jesus (God) and Mary (Human) in the New.
He inspires prophesy in the Old, and delivers His Promise of the Fulfillment (Christ) in the New. Circumcision becomes Baptism … Passover becomes the Eucharist. Darkness (fallen man) becomes Light (Christ redeems us).
These are beautiful relationships … and perfect one’s too! They are the Truth, because His Church teaches them as Christ commands Her - He promised this, so I believe it with no doubt.
Mary was sinless, and it IS important. If I doubt this, then I don’t know Christ, because Christ could not be carried in a less than perfect (sinless) ark - He is the New Covenant. Nor could he be born of a sinful woman - this is not in keeping of the Old Testament - Christ came to fulfill not to do away with the OT.
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jabelltulsa
Guest
A
apophasis
Guest
G., the Hebrew word, “eybah,” translated “enmity” does not mean “total separation.” It means to be an enemy, hostility, or hatred. Neither the Hebrew word or the context connotatively suggests a separation based on sinlessness. And certainly not the alleged sinslessness of Mary. That idea is forced upon the text, not drawn from it. Another clear case of Rome reading its Marian doctrine into a Biblical text.
This prophecy has long been known as the “Protevangelium,” the first gospel (good news). A prophecy about Jesus Christ, the coming and ultimate victory of the Redeemer - not Mary. There is no such thing as a “gospel” of Mary. The “good news” (gospel) of the Bible, from beginning to end, is Jesus Christ.
In context God spoke directly to the serpent and the woman Eve (not Mary) and prophesied concerning their “seed.” Obviously “seed” cannot be taken literally here since neither Satan (who is a spirit; the entity behind the serpent; Rev. 12:9) or the woman are able to produce actual “seed” ; only man was created physically to do this. The two “seeds,” then, must immediately refer to spiritual progeny, not physical.
Specifically Satan’s “seed” being those born into the human race who knowingly and wilfully set themselves at enmity (hostile) with the seed of the woman and oppose God’s purposes in creation and redemption. They take on the character of the Adversary (cf. Jn. 8:44; Eph. 2:2-3). The “seed of the woman” being first of all those in the human family who are brought into right relationship with God through faith - they being, spiritually, children of the Father (cf. Jn. 1:13).
The prophecy forecasts an age-long conflict between the children of the kingdom and of the wicked one, beginning with Cain and Abel (cf. Matt. 13:37-40; 1 Jn. 3:8-12) and continuing even to the end of the Millennial age that is yet to come.
Besides the plural and corporate meaning there’s obviously another meaning of the two “seeds.” A PRIMARY seed of the serpent and a PRIMARY seed of the woman. The primary seed of the former being the, yet to come, “son of perdition” (2 Thess. 2:3), the anti-Christ, to whom the “Dragon” gives his power, throne and authority (Rev. 13:2). The primary seed of the woman being, of course, Jesus Christ, who came to destroy the works of the devil (1 Jn. 3:8), and according to Gen. 3:15, to “crush” Satan himself.
Since God has, through the canon of the Old and New Testament Scriptures, revealed to us His programs for the ages, we can see that this prophecy clearly implied that one day one would be supernaturally conceived and born of a virgin. This promised Seed would not partake of the inherited sin nature of Adam’s posterity, yet He would be a man. And though His “heal” would be “crushed” in conflict (the cross), He would eventually emerge as Victor, “crushing” the Serpent’s head (fatal) and destroying the works of the Devil. This began at Calvary and will ultimately end with Satan being thrown, forever, into the lake of fire and brimstone at the end of Christ’s Millennial reign and rule over this present earth (Rev. 20:1-3, 7-10).
G., all the Old and New Testament Scriptures subsequent to Gen. 3:15 unfold what was foretold (in germ form) in this amazing prophecy regarding the Devil, mankind and the Person and redeeming work of the Son of Man who was to come. The O.T being the anticipation of Him; the Gospel accounts the revelation of Him; the Book Acts the propagation of Him; the Epistles the explanation of Him; the Book of Revelation the consmation of Him.
To erroneously interpret Gen. 3:15 to be about Mary’s IC and sinlessness is to utterly fail to understand that magnificent prophecy; as well as to not comprehend the Christological theme of the entire written Word of God.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
The NAB says, **He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” **
Still Mary did heard the word of God and keep it. Take a look at the foot of the cross, while the majority of the disciple fled, only Mary, John, and other women were there with Jesus. Their love for Our Lord is just amazing.
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apophasis
Guest
That’s because there’s no proof that either Christ or any of the Apostles ever spoke of her or described her in such terms. They’re not divine revelation but the personal sentiments of mere men. True Christianity is not based on the subjective, sentiments of men.
Not even the Bible speaks much about Mary. In fact, very little, indeed, is revealed about her through that divine, written revelation. The majority of those Marian dogmas you now embrace are extra-biblical and are yet to be proved to have any Apostolic support.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
You want Apostolic here you go:
I. Mary is the Mother of God
“After this, we receive the doctrine of the resurrection from the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the first-fruits; Who bore a Body, in truth, not in semblance, derived from Mary the mother of God in the fullness of time sojourning among the race, for the remission of sins: who was crucified and died, yet for all this suffered no diminution of His Godhead.” Alexander of Alexandria, Epistle to Alexander, 12 (A.D. 324).
“Many, my beloved, are the true testimonies concerning Christ. The Father bears witness from heaven of His Son: the Holy Ghost bears witness, descending bodily in likeness of a dove: the Archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing good tidings to Mary: the Virgin Mother of God bears witness: the blessed place of the manger bears witness.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, X:19 (c. A.D. 350).
“And the Angel on his appearance, himself confesses that he has been sent by his Lord; as Gabriel confessed in the case of Zacharias, and also in the case of Mary, bearer of God.” Athanasius, Orations III, 14(A.D. 362).
“Just as, in the age of Mary the mother of God, he who had reigned from Adam to her time found, when he came to her and dashed his forces against the fruit of her virginity as against a rock, that he was shattered to pieces upon her, so in every soul which passes through this life in the flesh under the protection of virginity, the strength of death is in a manner broken and annulled, for he does not find the places upon which he may fix his sting.” Gregory of Nyssa, On Virginity, 14 (A.D. 370).
I. Mary is the Mother of God
“After this, we receive the doctrine of the resurrection from the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the first-fruits; Who bore a Body, in truth, not in semblance, derived from Mary the mother of God in the fullness of time sojourning among the race, for the remission of sins: who was crucified and died, yet for all this suffered no diminution of His Godhead.” Alexander of Alexandria, Epistle to Alexander, 12 (A.D. 324).
“Many, my beloved, are the true testimonies concerning Christ. The Father bears witness from heaven of His Son: the Holy Ghost bears witness, descending bodily in likeness of a dove: the Archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing good tidings to Mary: the Virgin Mother of God bears witness: the blessed place of the manger bears witness.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, X:19 (c. A.D. 350).
“And the Angel on his appearance, himself confesses that he has been sent by his Lord; as Gabriel confessed in the case of Zacharias, and also in the case of Mary, bearer of God.” Athanasius, Orations III, 14(A.D. 362).
“Just as, in the age of Mary the mother of God, he who had reigned from Adam to her time found, when he came to her and dashed his forces against the fruit of her virginity as against a rock, that he was shattered to pieces upon her, so in every soul which passes through this life in the flesh under the protection of virginity, the strength of death is in a manner broken and annulled, for he does not find the places upon which he may fix his sting.” Gregory of Nyssa, On Virginity, 14 (A.D. 370).
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Mannyfit75
Guest
II. Mary’s Immaculate Conception
“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).
“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).
“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).
“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).
“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).
“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).
III. Mary is Ever-virgin
“And indeed it was a virgin, about to marry once for all after her delivery, who gave birth to Christ, in order that each title of sanctity might be fulfilled in Christ’s parentage, by means of a mother who was both virgin, and wife of one husband. Again, when He is presented as an infant in the temple, who is it who receives Him into his hands? Who is the first to recognize Him in spirit? A man just and circumspect,’ and of course no digamist, (which is plain) even (from this consideration), lest (otherwise) Christ should presently be more worthily preached by a woman, an aged widow, and the wife of one man;’ who, living devoted to the temple, was (already) giving in her own person a sufficient token what sort of persons ought to be the adherents to the spiritual temple,–that is, the Church. Such eye-witnesses the Lord in infancy found; no different ones had He in adult age." Tertullian, On Monogamy, 8 (A.D. 213).
“For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus, and yet Jesus says to His mother, Woman, behold thy son,’ and not Behold you have this son also,’ then He virtually said to her, Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear.’ Is it not the case that every one who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him; and if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, Behold thy son Christ.’ What a mind, then, must we have to enable us to interpret in a worthy manner this work, though it be committed to the earthly treasure-house of common speech, of writing which any passer-by can read, and which can be heard when read aloud by any one who lends to it his bodily ears?” Origen, Commentary on John, I:6 (A.D. 232).
“Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin; for in neither case had it been of profit to us men, whether the Word were not true and naturally Son of God, or the flesh not true which He assumed.” Athanasius, Orations against the Arians, II:70 (A.D. 362).
“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).
“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).
“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).
“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).
“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).
“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).
III. Mary is Ever-virgin
“And indeed it was a virgin, about to marry once for all after her delivery, who gave birth to Christ, in order that each title of sanctity might be fulfilled in Christ’s parentage, by means of a mother who was both virgin, and wife of one husband. Again, when He is presented as an infant in the temple, who is it who receives Him into his hands? Who is the first to recognize Him in spirit? A man just and circumspect,’ and of course no digamist, (which is plain) even (from this consideration), lest (otherwise) Christ should presently be more worthily preached by a woman, an aged widow, and the wife of one man;’ who, living devoted to the temple, was (already) giving in her own person a sufficient token what sort of persons ought to be the adherents to the spiritual temple,–that is, the Church. Such eye-witnesses the Lord in infancy found; no different ones had He in adult age." Tertullian, On Monogamy, 8 (A.D. 213).
“For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus, and yet Jesus says to His mother, Woman, behold thy son,’ and not Behold you have this son also,’ then He virtually said to her, Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear.’ Is it not the case that every one who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him; and if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, Behold thy son Christ.’ What a mind, then, must we have to enable us to interpret in a worthy manner this work, though it be committed to the earthly treasure-house of common speech, of writing which any passer-by can read, and which can be heard when read aloud by any one who lends to it his bodily ears?” Origen, Commentary on John, I:6 (A.D. 232).
“Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin; for in neither case had it been of profit to us men, whether the Word were not true and naturally Son of God, or the flesh not true which He assumed.” Athanasius, Orations against the Arians, II:70 (A.D. 362).
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Mannyfit75
Guest
IV. Mary’s Assumption into Heaven
“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one…Had she been martyred according to what is written: ‘Thine own soul a sword shall pierce’, then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).
“[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones…” Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4 (inter A.D. 575-593).
“As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.” Modestus of Jerusalem, Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae (PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634).
“It was fitting …that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory …should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God.” Theoteknos of Livias, Homily on the Assumption (ante A.D. 650).
“You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life.” Germanus of Constantinople, Sermon I (PG 98,346), (ante A.D. 733).
“St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.” John of Damascene, PG (96:1) (A.D. 747-751).
“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one…Had she been martyred according to what is written: ‘Thine own soul a sword shall pierce’, then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).
“[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones…” Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4 (inter A.D. 575-593).
“As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.” Modestus of Jerusalem, Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae (PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634).
“It was fitting …that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory …should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God.” Theoteknos of Livias, Homily on the Assumption (ante A.D. 650).
“You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life.” Germanus of Constantinople, Sermon I (PG 98,346), (ante A.D. 733).
“St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.” John of Damascene, PG (96:1) (A.D. 747-751).
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Mannyfit75
Guest
V. Mary is the New Eve and Most Blessed Among Women
“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord." Ignatius, To the Ephesians, 7 (c. A.D. 110).
“[T]hey blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever.” Protoevangelium of John, 6:2 (A.D. 150).
“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155).
“[H]e was born of Mary the fair ewe.” Melito de Sardo, Easter Homily (c. A.D. 177).
“In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.’ But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise ‘they were both naked, and were not ashamed,’ inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty… Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180).
“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord." Ignatius, To the Ephesians, 7 (c. A.D. 110).
“[T]hey blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever.” Protoevangelium of John, 6:2 (A.D. 150).
“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155).
“[H]e was born of Mary the fair ewe.” Melito de Sardo, Easter Homily (c. A.D. 177).
“In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.’ But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise ‘they were both naked, and were not ashamed,’ inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty… Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180).
G
guanophore
Guest
No, but we believe He CHOOSES to depend upon us. This is why He is grieved when we do not respond in faith. Mary responded most perfectly, and thus is our example. She remained “full of grace”, and ready every moment to embrace the fullness of God’s plan. So, in the fullness of time, when the angel came to her, though she did not understand HOW it could be, she was willing, ready, and able to give herself fully, freely, and finally to the Lord’s plan. Would that we can ALL follow her example!
G
guanophore
Guest
If you can see this, how is it you cannot see the seeds of the Ark of the Old Covenant full grown in the Ark of the New?
G
Ginger2
Guest
guanophore,
No God does not depend upon us - not even by choice.
God uses us to accomplish for His glory.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1Cr 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
No God does not depend upon us - not even by choice.
God uses us to accomplish for His glory.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1Cr 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
J
jabelltulsa
Guest
Then why am I asked questions like “Have you accepts Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior?” This cannot be found in the bible either. It can be derived from the Bible, just like the titles given to Mary. Further, and more clearly, the Church and the office of the apostles are shown to be the authority here on Earth while Christ is gone. There are many threads in this forum that show this, and the Gospels themselves show this clearly. The Church is where we get the Marian Doctrines - from the teacher that Christ appointed which is the Church.
They are not extra-biblical, because they are grounded in Sacred Scripture.
Further, when the Gospels speak of Christ, it begins here on Earth with Mary. When Christ comes into the world, the first person to know is Mary, for she will be His mother. She also is the one who asks for His first miracle. She is mentioned when he is dying on the Cross. The Gospels themselves show how special Mary is to our Savior. These passages can not be described as ‘very little’. If you don’t see this, then you have not been properly taught, in my opinion. The Church does what she is supposed to in regards to respecting and honoring His blessed mother - they speak the Truth of her, and only the Church has the authority to declare these things.
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Good_Fella
Guest
Calvinists embrace the false doctrine ‘sola gratia’ and so believe that salvation and damnation depend wholly on the will of God - man is completely predetermined (or preprogrammed like a robot) to one destiny or another by irresistible grace or the lack thereof, without any cooperation or resistance of His will, for grace is irrestistible. Yet they overlook the fact that after God created Adam and Eve in His own image by giving them a free will, in a state of sanctifying grace, they freely chose to resist God’s grace. What logically follows, according to Calvinistic thought, is that Adam and Eve were predetermined by God to fall from his grace and so the entire human race has been damned for all eternity. But if this is so, then why did God send his only Son into the world to redeem fallen mankind? There was no point, considering all of us were already damned for all time because of our first parents’ programmed resistance to God’s grace. The sin of Adam and Eve is not merely a personal sin, but also the inherited sin of the human race. Further, how can we be morally responsible for our misdeeds if we have no free will and moral responsibilty? There is no sin without full knowledge and full consent of the sinner. Conversely, there is no salvation without full knowledge and full consent of the repentant sinner. There is no positive or negative consent without free will. And without free will there is no justification. Ginger, the God you conceive is an unjust God, condemning people without even giving them a chance to turn things around. Your arbitrary citation of Scripture simply serves to accommodate your erroneous preconceived notions. Now that is sad! :crying:
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
G
Ginger2
Guest
Good Fella,
You apparently have confused me with someone else. I never told you the things you just claimed I believe.
As a matter-of-fact, I don’t even know anyone who believes what you just said.
Is there someone on this thread who’s beliefs match post # 535?
Now that I think of it…isn’t that what Catholics are saying about Mary?
You apparently have confused me with someone else. I never told you the things you just claimed I believe.
As a matter-of-fact, I don’t even know anyone who believes what you just said.
Is there someone on this thread who’s beliefs match post # 535?
Now that I think of it…isn’t that what Catholics are saying about Mary?
G
Good_Fella
Guest
What you say is to be expected from a Calvinist whose relationship with God is Master-slave, not Father-son or Father- daughter. I would agree with you if the scriptures did not teach us that God created man in his divine image - meaning with a free will. Luke was no Calvinist, I can assure you, so he would reject your coined expression “the bond-slave of the Lord”. :yup: You presume that the Master could not have necessarily waited for a programmed human creature to grant him “permission”. But Luke presents us with a relationship between a “heavenly Father” and his beloved daughter whose free consent he awaited. God foresees our free response to his will and gratuitous offer, but he does not pre-determine our reponse to his grace. You confuse pre-determination with foreknowledge. We can foresee the beneficial or detrimental results of future actions of ours. But these results are conditional upon our choice of actions. They do not necessarily occur because of the foreknowledge we had about these conditional results. The same results could have occured if we acted without relying upon pre-existing foreknowledge. God foresaw how Mary would respond to the angel Gabriel, but that did not necessarily mean she pronounced her ‘Fiat’ because God knew she would. :nope: God constantly knew from all eternity that she would accept His will because she freely did. Now according to your twisted concept of pre-determination, we no longer have the Christian virtues of Faith, Hope, and Love. Faith does not mean knowing with certainty that I have been saved regardless of my actions; a slave fears and respects his master, but does not truly love him, and there is no Love without freedom; and what is the purpose of having any Hope if God has already decided who is to be saved or damned?
Besides, being absolutely certain that one has already been saved individually precludes the virtue of Hope. The life of Mary as presented in the scriptures provides us with a true expression of Faith, Hope, and Love. 
“Indeed, if, while we were still enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, once reconciled, will we be saved by his life.” [Romans 5:10]
In Romans 5:1-11, St.Paul assures believers that God’s justifying action in Jesus Christ is a declaration of peace. The crucufixion of Jesus Christ displays God’s initiative in certifying humanity for unimpeded access into his divine presence. (There is still hope for everyone. Unimpeded access does not mean irresistible grace for a pre-determined elect. How does a Calvinist even know he has the gift of God’s grace? Is it by his actions? But if so, then wouldn’t his actions contain individual merit? I thought he was supposed to be saved by faith alone.
) Anyway, reconciliation is God’s gift of pardon to the “entire” human race. :grouphug: Through faith everyone benefits personally from this pardon - is justified. The ultimate aim of God is to liberate all believers from their pre-Christian self. God’s promise of salvation fills believers with expectation and anticipation for the gift of unalloyed ‘commitment’ in the Holy Spirit to the performance of the will of God. The trials that attend Christian commitment are to teach believers patience and to strengthen their hope in God’s promise of salvation and eternal happiness. For the Apostle, hope does not suggest a note of uncertainty to the effect we would ask ourselves “I wonder if God really means it?” One can only be uncertain if he fails to make a personal commitment in his life to our Lord.Our heavenly Father is not waiting for us to give him permission to save us. He is waiting for us to accept his free gift of salvation. And he is waiting for everyone. It’s all about whether we want to be saved. A free gift is one which can be declined by the recipient. We owe it to Mary that she responded to God’s free gift of salvation the way she did on our behalf.
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
G
Good_Fella
Guest
You have granted what Evangelicals generally believe: God does not “depend” on our free cooperation, and He “uses” us to accomplish his glory. Beings who are used like mere objects cannot have a free will. God is not glorified by imposing himself on us and controlling us for his pleasure. A dictator is inclined to behave in such a way. Glory is power gained by control over others and the curtailing of human freedom. Mary glorified God by freely cooperating with him. Her love and obedience restored the divine glory that was diminished by Eve’s indifference and disobedience. God is not glorified by our sins. He is glorified by our love and obedience. He does not need our love and obedience, but he desires it on account of his love for us. He is dependent on us to faithfully accept and freely respond to his will in love. Love is freedom, and freedom is love. It’s our move, now that the Father has approached us. See #533.
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
A
Axion
Guest
these are the terms in whic the earliest recorded Fathers of the Church spoke of Mary. Men who defended the basics of Christian doctrine, like Irenaeus.
…the virgin Eve, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, was unhappily led astray,-- yet that deception was done away with because the Virgin Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, heard the truth spoken by an angel, and was obedient. For just as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication receive the glad tidings that she should
sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word.
The former disobeyed God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, so that the Virgin Mary might become patroness (advocata) of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience.
AGAINST HERESIS 190AD
Actually Mary is one of the most mentioned personages in the New testament. And the backing for Apostolic teaching from scripture fills this thread. You need to read again without the blinkers.
- Status