The Virgin Mary

[Ginger2]

rig,

It’s not a matter of pride. But I am very thankful, because as long as God uses me - even tho at times I am unaware - then my life has not been in vain.

The point of Luke 7 is that is where I am. God has forgiven me so much. He has lifted such a burden from my shoulders. There is no why to repay Him for all that He has done. I am so eager to serve out of love for Him. Yet, I understand I have nothing to offer God but myself - freely - as He has given to me, let me give freely my will to Him. Not what I want. What He wants. I pray that even faced with death He will keep me strong so that even by dying I will bring Him glory.

I have a severe injury to my hand - probably the worst thing that has ever happened to me (so far) But when people ask me about it, I can tell them how God has blessed me. Even the bad things I can thankful for.

Let me be like Job. Continually thanking and praising God for He is good and His mercies will never end.

May I always find favor in His eyes.

 

[rlg94086]

I will pray for the intercession of our Mother tonight, that her Son will continue to bless you.

Pax,
Robert

rig,

It’s not a matter of pride. But I am very thankful, because as long as God uses me - even tho at times I am unaware - then my life has not been in vain.

The point of Luke 7 is that is where I am. God has forgiven me so much. He has lifted such a burden from my shoulders. There is no why to repay Him for all that He has done. I am so eager to serve out of love for Him. Yet, I understand I have nothing to offer God but myself - freely - as He has given to me, let me give freely my will to Him. Not what I want. What He wants. I pray that even faced with death He will keep me strong so that even by dying I will bring Him glory.

I have a severe injury to my hand - probably the worst thing that has ever happened to me (so far) But when people ask me about it, I can tell them how God has blessed me. Even the bad things I can thankful for.

Let me be like Job. Continually thanking and praising God for He is good and His mercies will never end.

May I always find favor in His eyes.

 

[Good_Fella]

Quote Good Fella,“None of these churches can agree with each other on many essential Christian doctrines.”

Which “**essential **doctrines” do you believe churches disagree on:

That there is only one God?

That God creator heaven and Earth and all that was, is and ever shall be?

That Jesus Christ is the incarnate God?

That Jesus was crucified, dead and buried?

That on the third day he rose from the dead?

That he assended into heaven?

That he will come again to judge?

I’ve asked before What essential piece of info, concerning salvation, is missing from Scripture?

The answer has been “correct interpretation” but the Scriptures say they don’t need outside interpretation to be understood.

Acts
17:10-12 ….carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.

Act 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Ginger, you have presented an incomplete rendition of the Apostles Creed. You forgot to add "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life. Many Protestants do not believe that the Holy Spirit is God. Their Creed has only two divine Persons. Are you one of them? This is one of the essential doctrines I’m referring to.

I’ll get back to you on Romans 9.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Ginger2]

I believe the Holy Spirit is God.

Which denomination doesn’t believe in the Trinity? Don’t say JW’s They are not Christians by definition.

Actually I find it ironic that the JW’s don’t believe they will go to heaven. Heaven is full you know. No vacancy.

 

[jmcrae]

I believe the Holy Spirit is God.

Which denomination doesn’t believe in the Trinity? Don’t say JW’s They are not Christians by definition.

Actually I find it ironic that the JW’s don’t believe they will go to heaven. Heaven is full you know. No vacancy.

Yes, but they will get to live forever in Paradise, on a re-created and sin-free earth, while the rest of us go to Hell. I guess that makes up for not getting to go to Heaven.

 

[Ginger2]

Thank you rig. I have grown very fond of you in the past few days. I am very much looking forward to meeting in heaven one day.

 

[Ginger2]

jm,

tee, hee, hee. You are too funny!

 

[jmcrae]

I believe the Holy Spirit is God.

Which denomination doesn’t believe in the Trinity?

Seventh Day Adventists and Oneness Pentecostals also deny the Trinity, and there is a strand of Anglicanism that denies just about every statement in the Creed.

 

[Ginger2]

I don’t know anything about the Oneness Pentecostals or Anglicanism.

But I have one aunt who is a Seventh Day Adventist. I feel very bad for her.

Universalists think everyone is going to heaven - even satan. Those who don’t accept Christ in this life will be beaten into submission in the afterlife. Has nothing to do with forgiveness or punishment for sins.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t know anything about the Oneness Pentecostals or Anglicanism.

But I have one aunt who is a Seventh Day Adventist. I feel very bad for her.

Universalists think everyone is going to heaven - even satan. Those who don’t accept Christ in this life will be beaten into submission in the afterlife. Has nothing to do with forgiveness or punishment for sins.

Yes - I was quite horrified when my overseas foster child was put into a Seventh Day Adventist Sunday School - it was the only Sunday School they could find in the region where he lives. They said, “Well, something is better than nothing,” but I was thinking, “No - in this case, I think nothing would have been better than that.”

 

[rlg94086]

I don’t know anything about the Oneness Pentecostals or Anglicanism.

But I have one aunt who is a Seventh Day Adventist. I feel very bad for her.

Universalists think everyone is going to **heaven **- even satan. Those who don’t accept Christ in this life will be beaten into submission in the afterlife. Has nothing to do with forgiveness or punishment for sins.

Wow! That is an interesting view of Heaven!

Who doles out the beatings? St. Peter at the gate? Or, is it a gauntlet of saints with paddle boards?

 

[Ginger2]

“Beat into submission” is probably my paraphrasing.

Universalists say that God cannot fail - He always gets what He wants and since He wants everyone to be in heaven “He had no choice for Universal Salvation to become possible; He had to sacrifice His Son.”

Then they say that for those who still don’t believe in God, there is a judgment that comes after we die resulting in the saving of all. In other words, the sacrifice of Jesus was a failure.

Those who are not saved by Jesus end up in a place of torment, a lake of fire, until they can’t stand it anymore and agree to love God.

 

[jmcrae]

“Beat into submission” is probably my paraphrasing.

Universalists say that God cannot fail - He always gets what He wants and since He wants everyone to be in heaven “He had no choice for Universal Salvation to become possible; He had to sacrifice His Son.”

Then they say that for those who still don’t believe in God, there is a judgment that comes after we die resulting in the saving of all. In other words, the sacrifice of Jesus was a failure.

Those who are not saved by Jesus end up in a place of torment, a lake of fire, until they can’t stand it anymore and agree to love God.

To quote a common Universalist proverb, “I don’t think I could ever believe in a God like that.”

I think their God is even more monstrous than they think our God is.

At least our God gives us free will, and lets us make our own choices - even to the point where He will work around the consequences of our choices, rather than by-pass them, and making it so that our choices really do matter.

 

[apophasis]

jabelltulsa:

Here we have the break in our communication. You asset that all truth is found only in Sacred Scripture. This is not biblical only the Church has the fullness of Truth. The teaching of the Church in these matters goes on today, as indicated in the New Testament.

I bring up Scripture and you reply with “here we have a break in our communication?” How strange that sounds to me. But still, Jabell, you avoided my question.

Nor is there any evidence that speaks to it being severed. In fact, to think that there is a break in this relationship (Jesus and Mary) seems to elude to a break in Jesus Man and Jesus God, which is heretical.

There’s no correlation between the two at all. How in the world did you come up with that??? In the eternal state redeemed, fallen humanity becomes as Christ - possessing a glorified body like His. In fact, the promise is that when Christ returns for us He “…will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory” (see Phil. 3:20-21). Our “kinsman Redeemer” took on humanity forever - and we shall be like Him - forever (1Jn. 3:2); He’s the first fruits of those who are asleep (1 Cor. 15:20).

But there’s no correlation with that Biblical truth and the earthly, parent/child relationship. If you have saved parents they won’t be parenting you throughout eternity. Within the family of God there’s not going to be separate, private family units in heaven. Think how cruel that would be for those who were not so fortunate to have believing parents.

Of course she was put into the care of another, for he was to die on the Cross. He was going to be away from her. Someone needed to take care of her while He was fulfilling His Promise.

For three days and three nights? What did she do, pray tell, when He was traveling about Israel ministering? No! The wording is quite graphic: “Behold your son…behold your mother.” He didn’t say to John, “Behold, take care of My mother for the next three days.”

The Church keeps Mary as John did. She (the Church) proclaims her Blessedness for all time, and She keeps Mary’s importance at the forefront.

Yet John never even mentions her in his Epistles. So how was that keeping her “at the forefront?” In fact, after a very brief mention of her in Acts chapter one she completely disappears from Biblical history (I already commented on Rev. 12 in another post.). I’d say your church is doing with Mary what neither John or any of the Apostles ever did.

So, by your rationale, Christ’s Church was at the core pagan for all these centuries?

First of all the Marian dogmas were time developed. I said that since those personal opinions about Mary were accepted as dogma, it’s been taught that Christianity is at its core a Mother/Child religion. Do I believe that by this a pagan idea infiltrated the Church? You betcha!! As did many others. And for this reason most of the Marian doctrines were eventually jettisoned that the church (the body of Christ) might return once again to a strictly Christ centered faith - as it was at the beginning. A return to “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” by the Apostles (Jude 3).

Rev. 12:1 - Written by John, by the way. This was foreshadowed in Genesis 3:15. Who is the woman?

The woman is national Israel. So no, it was not foreshadowed in Gen. 3:15. It is the Son she gives birth to that is caught up to God and to His throne - the woman herself is never seen in heaven but remains on earth. The “sign” is seen in heaven, but the events portrayed in the sign take place on earth. If you interpret the woman as Mary, then she’s not in heaven but is still hiding in the wilderness somewhere in the middle east (vs. 14). I would think that those who interpret the woman as Mary would be sending out expeditions to look for her. At least take her some rations.

 

[apophasis]

jabelltulsa:

Of course not - What I am saying is that if a belief has been held since the time of the apostles and the early Church fathers, then has Christ failed to deliver His Promise that the Gates of Hell (deception/lies) shall not prevail against Her? Only today to people challenge Mary and her role and the honor due her. This is not a minor issue - if these Doctrines were false, then the Gates of Hell have prevailed.

(1) You have yet to prove that the Marian doctrines were ever held and taught by the Apostles. (2) The promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against her means just that - won’t prevail, predominate, rule. Enter the Reformation and a return to a more Biblically based faith. “Not prevail” means it won’t completely apostatize. There will always be true believers on this earth until He comes for her (His Church/Bride) and she meets Him in the air and returns to heaven with Him (1 Thess. 4:15-18; Jn. 14:3).

 

[guanophore]

guanophore,

No God does not depend upon us - not even by choice.

God uses us to accomplish for His glory.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1Cr 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

This is saying one and the same thing. When we cooperate with God’s plan, and by our choice fulfill His divine calling, then we glorify Him in ourselves. Or are you saying that people really have no choice in the plan?

Does not Jesus grieve here because the People would not respond to His call?

Matt 23:37-39

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

 

[jabelltulsa]

(1) You have yet to prove that the Marian doctrines were ever held and taught by the Apostles. (2) The promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against her means just that - won’t prevail, predominate, rule. Enter the Reformation and a return to a more Biblically based faith. “Not prevail” means it won’t completely apostatize. There will always be true believers on this earth until He comes for her (His Church/Bride) and she meets Him in the air and returns to heaven with Him (1 Thess. 4:15-18; Jn. 14:3).

The proof is in the unbroken succession of the apostles and their teachings. Another example of this is the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. If you do not hold the Marian Doctrines, then why do you believe that Christ is the 2nd Person in God, or that the Holy Spirit is God (3rd Person).

Just as these Doctrines come from the Traditions of the Church, so does Marian Doctrine.

This is the proof I offer. It may not be adequate for you, but this is what Christ promised - a teaching Church that will be with us until He returns.

 

[guanophore]

Then how is God effected by those who deny Him? Are unfaithful? Hate Him?

Mark 3:5
5 And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart,

He is hurt, angry, and sad (grieved)

God is not controlling us like puppets. Rather God is in control. We have freewill, but no power to effect God’s plans by what we do.

Luke 7:30
30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves,

If those people did not have any free will, then how could they reject His purpose for themselves?

 

[Good_Fella]

(1) You have yet to prove that the Marian doctrines were ever held and taught by the Apostles. (2) The promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against her means just that - won’t prevail, predominate, rule. Enter the Reformation and a return to a more Biblically based faith. “Not prevail” means it won’t completely apostatize. There will always be true believers on this earth until He comes for her (His Church/Bride) and she meets Him in the air and returns to heaven with Him (1 Thess. 4:15-18; Jn. 14:3).

Protestantism isn’t the Catholic Church, laddie, it isn’t One Holy and Apostolic. It’s a plurality of man-made churches, contradicting Christ’s prophecy, it’s spiritually orphaned, and apostolic to the extent that its doctrines are in accord with the Catholic Church. History and the scriptures are not on your side. Most of your doctrines are unbiblical, ie, dispensationalism, predestination, sola fide, sola scriptura, sola Christo, sola gratia. Why do you keep asking for proof. I told you that you are begging the question asking us to give proof according to your faulty set of criteria. Let it rest, and study the right history books. :irish3:

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[guanophore]

Because I see a Christ centered gospel. The Ark of the Mosaic law with its blood stained mercy seat prefigured the Person and work of Jesus Christ - not Mary. Read Hebrew chapter nine. It won’t take you long. In respect to the “Ark of the Old Covenant,” is Mary even mentioned once?

Do you think that the identification of Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant somehow takes away from the mercy seat? In what way is Mary not Christocentric?

Thank you. It is from the RCC that you get the Marian doctrines you now embrace.

Actually, this is not entirely true. Although there are Latin teaching that the Orthodox don’t share, they do share most of the Marian doctines. There is nothing specifically Roman about them. We hold them because they are part of the Apostolic Tradition, in the East and the West.

But Christ never appointed that Church as our teacher. Now it is true that God has given to the Church (the Body of Christ) some as teachers for the equipping of the saints, but the Church itself is not appointed our teacher (see Eph. 4:11-14).

No teacher would have been accepted if what they taught was not part of the Apostolic Tradition.

What was wrong is when those opinions were then taught as dogma.No church has any authority to teach as dogma the opinions of men. The leadership of every church has the responsibility to teach Apostolic truth - nothing more.

Apo, there is only ONE CHURCH. Jesus did not found “churches”. One Body. One Lord. One Faith. One Baptism.